Immigration and the nature of our society

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby WildCat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:28 am

RCC: Act II wrote:Why non-starters? Cheap labor helps economic expansion.

And now we have RCC arguing against fair wages and for exploitation of labor.

I swear Trump has made "progressives" batshit insane.
Last edited by WildCat on Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby WildCat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:35 am

Mentat wrote:
Why non-starters? Cheap labor helps economic expansion. The idea that restricting the pool of workers will simply cause wages to rise assumes that those businesses will be viable with the increased wages.


The money that comes from paying higher wages isn't free. Somebody's got to foot the bill. That means more expensive product, less revenue for the business, and less money to hire other employees.

Yes, those business sectors where illegal immigrants dominate will have to pay more in wages, and have to raise their prices to consumers. However, this has a far lower inflationary effect than minimum wage increases since it affects only a small segment of industries instead of everyone in all industries. And if everyone in the sector has to play by the same rules there's no competitive disadvantage.

And on the plus side those workers will have more money to spend and the economy grows, and less money has to be spent by government in food stamps, housing assistance, medical care, etc. while tax revenue increases.
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby gnome » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:38 am

So shouldn't we be cracking down on those business sectors instead of focusing on the people traffic?
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Mentat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:49 am

Dude, stop spamming me notifications.
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Grammatron » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:03 am

gnome wrote:So shouldn't we be cracking down on those business sectors instead of focusing on the people traffic?


In California you can be penalized if you try to check if your employees are not legal.
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby gnome » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:51 am

...and I would rather talk about overturning such things than argue about how much crime illegal immigrants commit or whether they cause gang problems or are a cultural threat of some kind.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby WildCat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:52 am

gnome wrote:So shouldn't we be cracking down on those business sectors instead of focusing on the people traffic?

Yes. Unfortunately Democrats are bitterly opposing that. California just made it illegal for a business owner to cooperate with ICE. Congressional Democrats want a "clean" DACA bill, meaning no legislation to, for example, make everify mandatory.
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby gnome » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:53 am

As mentioned before, I wish the Republican would talk about that more than about the immigrants themselves.
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby WildCat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:57 am

gnome wrote:As mentioned before, I wish the Republican would talk about that more than about the immigrants themselves.

I agree. They should be talking about how it puts downward pressure on wages, increases poverty, and increases government welfare expenses.
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby ed » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:56 am

Simple solution: $10,000 fine per day per illegal. 2 years in the slammer per day per illegal for the CEO. Problem solved.
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Grammatron » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:48 am

gnome wrote:...and I would rather talk about overturning such things than argue about how much crime illegal immigrants commit or whether they cause gang problems or are a cultural threat of some kind.


There's talk of it, but it's drowned out by extremists on both sides.

If you look at California for example, it's firmly moving in the direction of sanctuary state. How do you start such a conversation with the leadership of California when they refuse to even consider 'illegal immigrant' as a concept?
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:10 am

WildCat wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:Why non-starters? Cheap labor helps economic expansion.

And now we have RCC arguing against fair wages and for exploitation of labor.

I swear Trump has made "progressives" batshit insane.


I wouldn't give Trump credit for this.

Democrats have been rapidly alternating between boasting about labor laws they got passed and touting "undocumented workers" as being the backbone of the economy for at least couple of decades.
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby gnome » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:33 am

Grammatron wrote:
gnome wrote:...and I would rather talk about overturning such things than argue about how much crime illegal immigrants commit or whether they cause gang problems or are a cultural threat of some kind.


There's talk of it, but it's drowned out by extremists on both sides.

If you look at California for example, it's firmly moving in the direction of sanctuary state. How do you start such a conversation with the leadership of California when they refuse to even consider 'illegal immigrant' as a concept?


I'd probably start in an easier state and stick with the labor market angle (and the labor rights angle, at that). Focus on the companies employing illegals, take the wind out of the "racism" sails a little bit by not using the illegal immigrant as boogeymen, and see if it catches on elsewhere.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:45 pm

We could break precedent and allow California peacefully to secede.

Just make sure they understand that is what they are doing, and give San Diego special status so it can still be a US naval base (not unlike Guantanamo).

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby RCC: Act II » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:50 pm

WildCat wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:Why non-starters? Cheap labor helps economic expansion.

And now we have RCC arguing against fair wages and for exploitation of labor.

I swear Trump has made "progressives" batshit insane.


That I state a fact, that cheap labor helps economic expansion, is not advocating anything. Just stating a fact.

You see, I take these facts, pleasant and unpleasant, and try to use them to form an opinion. While I'd like to see wages higher, I understand that there are benefits to wages not being higher and a policy that ignores this will fail.

I'm leaning towards the idea that the minimum wage is a nonsense way to address the problems it seeks to solve, but it isn't as simple as just doing that and calling it a day. There would have to be a whole bunch of other things going on.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby RCC: Act II » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:59 pm

ed wrote:Simple solution: $10,000 fine per day per illegal. 2 years in the slammer per day per illegal for the CEO. Problem solved.


It is pretty much that simple, at least in principle.

(note for those not able to grasp the concept: This is not an endorsement; it is an agreement that this course of action is the optimal way to achieve the stated ends.)

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Mentat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:15 pm

So . . . punish the folks who aren't hurting anybody?
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Giz » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:17 pm

Mentat wrote:So . . . punish the folks who aren't hurting anybody?


Does a nation have the right to determine (and enforce) who enters?

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:27 pm

Mentat wrote:So . . . punish the folks who aren't hurting anybody?


You haven't lost the touch. :figamagee:

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby ed » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:31 pm

Giz wrote:
Mentat wrote:So . . . punish the folks who aren't hurting anybody?


Does a nation have the right to determine (and enforce) who enters?


Absolutely yes, in fact it is one of the primary duties of a government to defend borders. Again, a nation is not a purvayor of social services to outsiders, the primary obligation is to it's citizens.
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