Immigration and the nature of our society

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby ed » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:31 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mentat wrote:So . . . punish the folks who aren't hurting anybody?


You haven't lost the touch. :figamagee:

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no shit.
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Giz » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:37 pm

ed wrote:
Giz wrote:
Mentat wrote:So . . . punish the folks who aren't hurting anybody?


Does a nation have the right to determine (and enforce) who enters?


Absolutely yes, in fact it is one of the primary duties of a government to defend borders. Again, a nation is not a purvayor of social services to outsiders, the primary obligation is to it's citizens.


Agreed. I was just checking if Mentat knew.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Mentat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:50 pm

Giz wrote:
Mentat wrote:So . . . punish the folks who aren't hurting anybody?


Does a nation have the right to determine (and enforce) who enters?


What does that have to do with imprisoning and fining regular citizens?
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Giz » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:57 pm

Mentat wrote:
Giz wrote:
Mentat wrote:So . . . punish the folks who aren't hurting anybody?


Does a nation have the right to determine (and enforce) who enters?


What does that have to do with imprisoning and fining regular citizens?


By regular citizens, you mean "citizens who knowingly, or through negligence, are breaking the law"?

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Mentat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:00 pm

The question is why is it illegal in the first place.
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Giz » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Mentat wrote:The question is why is it illegal in the first place.


So we are back to questioning if nations have the right to enforce border controls?

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Mentat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:12 pm

No.
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Mentat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:18 pm

Imprisoning employers and people who work with "criminals" is just down right dictatorial, and a pathway to punishing those who merely associate with such folks. Regardless if such folks are causing harm. It is a cornerstone of western philosophy that you are not accountable for the misdeeds of another. I thought that's what we want to preserve?
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Giz » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:21 pm

Mentat wrote:Imprisoning employers and people who work with "criminals" is just down right dictatorial, and a pathway to punishing those who merely associate with such folks. Regardless if such folks are causing harm. It is a cornerstone of western philosophy that you are not accountable for the misdeeds of another. I thought that's what we want to preserve?


Knowingly employing an illegal alien is surely more akin to knowingly purchasing stolen goods, i.e. it's not merely "associating "?

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Mentat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:24 pm

"Stolen"? They are not taking anybody's property. Employment is the purchase of labor. "Stealing" labor is forcing somebody into slavery, not voluntary employment. This is just grasping at straws.
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby ed » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:29 pm

Mentat wrote:The question is why is it illegal in the first place.


it isn't evidently, and that is the point. Providing safe haven and money to individuals who have no legal right to either could and should be made illegal. I suspect that if one were to sift thru FTC and ICC regulations you could probably conjure up some rule that is being broken, the issue is to codify and make law.

Also, being here illegally should be illegal, not simply a "violation".

This is really the core of the issue. Should we have open borders or no. Perhaps a referendum and let the people decide.
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Mentat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:35 pm

And what's the difference between that and any other "non-legal" activity? Is an employer or coworker to be punished if they know that an employee smokes weed? That they steal paper clips from the DMV? Who else gets punished? The neighbors who bring over food for a potluck? The manager of the apartments complex that rent rooms to them?

If there is a warrant out for them, then by all means they are harboring a suspect. Until then, you are doing nothing more than sacrificing core tennents of American values and burdening innocent citizens to solve your own personal problems. Which I find evil.
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Giz » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:51 pm

Employing illegals is (theoretically) prohibited. So it's not like "knowing someone smokes drugs", it's like "buying/selling drugs from someone"

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby RCC: Act II » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:59 pm

Mentat wrote:And what's the difference between that and any other "non-legal" activity? Is an employer or coworker to be punished if they know that an employee smokes weed? That they steal paper clips from the DMV? Who else gets punished? The neighbors who bring over food for a potluck? The manager of the apartments complex that rent rooms to them?

If there is a warrant out for them, then by all means they are harboring a suspect. Until then, you are doing nothing more than sacrificing core tennents of American values and burdening innocent citizens to solve your own personal problems. Which I find evil.


It is already illegal to hire an illegal alien. The law just isn't enforced very well. There would have to be a "willfully and knowingly" added to it if the penalties were increased, but hiring and employing person is a distinct act by the employer.

If one is trying to discourage migration for employment reasons, this is an effective way to go about it. If one wants to cause massive chaos, this is also an effective way to go about it. I'm sure taking a few million people already here and cutting them off from the ability to support themselves will lead to their calmly walking single file out of the country and our economy will easily handle the shock caused by the transition as businesses scramble to find replacements from their local labor pools by raising wages and offering generous relocation assistance.

What could go wrong?

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Mentat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:00 pm

Giz wrote:Employing illegals is (theoretically) prohibited. So it's not like "knowing someone smokes drugs", it's like "buying/selling drugs from someone"


Again, why illegal? Employment isn't harming anybody.
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby ed » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:02 pm

That is decidedly the most racist comment that I have seen here in some time.
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Grammatron » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:03 pm

lol
pillory wrote:jokes aren't funny....seriously thinking......

seriously thinking might be funny....but it's not joke

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Giz » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:04 pm

Mentat wrote:
Giz wrote:Employing illegals is (theoretically) prohibited. So it's not like "knowing someone smokes drugs", it's like "buying/selling drugs from someone"


Again, why illegal? Employment isn't harming anybody.


So we are back to questioning if nations have the right to enforce border controls?

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby ed » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:31 pm

I like to understand underlying principles.

Is the principle that anyone can enter the country and be employed? In other words, one does not need a passport or visa to enter.

This then leaves open and ignores
1. any questionable background of the people coming in
2. any impact on social service costs
3. any impact on the employment of citizens, particularly in the massively vulnerable black male 18-25 demo'
4. any impact on crime

That sum it up?

May I ask what the difference is between being a USA citizen and jumping the border?
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby ed » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:32 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Mentat wrote:And what's the difference between that and any other "non-legal" activity? Is an employer or coworker to be punished if they know that an employee smokes weed? That they steal paper clips from the DMV? Who else gets punished? The neighbors who bring over food for a potluck? The manager of the apartments complex that rent rooms to them?

If there is a warrant out for them, then by all means they are harboring a suspect. Until then, you are doing nothing more than sacrificing core tennents of American values and burdening innocent citizens to solve your own personal problems. Which I find evil.


It is already illegal to hire an illegal alien. The law just isn't enforced very well. There would have to be a "willfully and knowingly" added to it if the penalties were increased, but hiring and employing person is a distinct act by the employer.

If one is trying to discourage migration for employment reasons, this is an effective way to go about it. If one wants to cause massive chaos, this is also an effective way to go about it. I'm sure taking a few million people already here and cutting them off from the ability to support themselves will lead to their calmly walking single file out of the country and our economy will easily handle the shock caused by the transition as businesses scramble to find replacements from their local labor pools by raising wages and offering generous relocation assistance.

What could go wrong?


Willful ignorance for dramatic effect noted.
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