Florida School Shooting

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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by WildCat » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:01 pm

17 dead is worth it if it keeps 1 student out of the school to prison pipeline.
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:20 pm

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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by sparks » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:10 am

WildCat wrote:17 dead is worth it if it keeps 1 student out of the school to prison pipeline.
Not if one of the 17 is you, I expect. Now, perhaps I've misunderstood your post. Care to clarify?
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by Grammatron » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:14 am

sparks wrote:
WildCat wrote:17 dead is worth it if it keeps 1 student out of the school to prison pipeline.
Not if one of the 17 is you, I expect. Now, perhaps I've misunderstood your post. Care to clarify?
Wildcat was being sarcastic.

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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by sparks » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:14 am

I should hope so.
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by Skeeve » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:46 pm

Maybe time to look at (perhaps) something causal, besides guns...

Of the 27 Deadliest Mass Shooters, 26 of Them Had One Thing in Common
Suzanne Venker’s recent opinion piece on FoxNews is very, very important, because she points out that almost all of the most recent deadly mass shooters have one thing in common: fatherlessness.

She begins by pointing out a tweet after the terrible shooting in Florida last week. Actor and comedian Michael Ian Black began a series of tweets in this way, “Deeper even than the gun problem is this: boys are broken.”
...
Fatherlessness is a serious problem. America’s boys have been under stress for decades. It’s not toxic masculinity hurting them, it’s the fact that when they come home there are no fathers there. Plain and simple. Add that to a bunch of horrible cultural trends telling them that everything bad is good (gang culture, drugs, misogyny, etc.), and we’ve got a serious problem on our hands.

Venker goes on to explain that of CNN’s list of the “27 Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History, only one was raised by his biological father since childhood.

“Indeed, there is a direct correlation between boys who grow up with absent fathers and boys who drop out of school, who drink, who do drugs, who become delinquent and who wind up in prison,” she writes. “And who kill their classmates.”

This problem can’t be solved by any policy, or any sort of gun control. It is time to have a serious discussion about the degradation of our cultural norms.
At the least, it is an interesting observation....and might have something more to do with mass shootings than the "availability of firearms" does.
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by gnome » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:11 pm

An age old question--is it the psychological absence of the father, or is it a resource problem? Having to work + day care often prohibitively expensive spells trouble for kids of single moms.

Easy to blame it on the "cultural norms" than material hardship. People might have to actually do something about the latter. With the former you can talk about easy vote getters like degradation of values and point fingers at deviants in society and alternative lifestyles, and it doesn't cost a dime of tax money.
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:43 pm

It's the schools inculcating despair.

All those other factors may play into it, but the schools are the proximate cause.
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by Skeeve » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:31 pm

gnome wrote:An age old question--is it the psychological absence of the father, or is it a resource problem? Having to work + day care often prohibitively expensive spells trouble for kids of single moms.
I think it is both the psychological and physical absence of a father or father figure...
Moms can take care of boys...until they hit puberty.
At that point they are no longer (physically) capable of restraining a boy the way a father can...

So I have to ask, why is the father absent?
Is it because the father is a run-away?
Or
Is it because of a divorce?
Or
Because it is cost-effective for a woman to stay single, go on welfare,
put the "father" on child support, and maybe look for Section 8 housing?
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by gnome » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:54 pm

Skeeve wrote: Because it is cost-effective for a woman to stay single, go on welfare,
put the "father" on child support, and maybe look for Section 8 housing?
I would dispute this as an explanation. Financial incentive notwithstanding (and I am not sure I buy the numbers either), I would not expect it to be common for the father to be separated from an otherwise functional household for purely financial reasons. Usually I think the father is gone because the relationship is ended, in most cases along with the household being completely disfunctional, or because it would be disfunctional if both parents remained living together after the relationship ended.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by Skeeve » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:51 pm

gnome wrote:
Skeeve wrote: Because it is cost-effective for a woman to stay single, go on welfare,
put the "father" on child support, and maybe look for Section 8 housing?
I would dispute this as an explanation. Financial incentive notwithstanding (and I am not sure I buy the numbers either), I would not expect it to be common for the father to be separated from an otherwise functional household for purely financial reasons. Usually I think the father is gone because the relationship is ended, in most cases along with the household being completely disfunctional, or because it would be disfunctional if both parents remained living together after the relationship ended.
Question: do you dispute the following?
Children born to unmarried mothers are more likely to grow up in a single-parent household, experience instable living arrangements, live in poverty, and have socio-emotional problems.[1],[2],[3],[4] As these children reach adolescence, they are more likely to have low educational attainment, engage in sex at a younger age, and have a birth outside of marriage.[5] ,[6] ,[7] ,[8] As young adults, children born outside of marriage are more likely to be idle (neither in school nor employed), have lower occupational status and income, and have more troubled marriages and more divorces than those born to married parents.[9]

Women who give birth outside of marriage tend to be more disadvantaged than their married counterparts, both before and after the birth. Unmarried mothers generally have lower incomes, lower education levels, and are more likely to be dependent on welfare assistance compared with married mothers.[10],[11],[12],[13] Women who have a nonmarital birth also tend to fare worse than childless single women; for example, they have reduced marriage prospects compared with single women without children.[14],[15]
https://www.childtrends.org/indicators/ ... ied-women/
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by ed » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:14 pm

And the oow birthrate for black americans is >70%
What do you think is going to happen?
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by Giz » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:15 pm

The big question is: would these irresponsible, deadbeat dads be a positive role model if they stayed around. At the moment, we seem to be comparing:

1) kids with dads (most of whom are responsible/average members of the population )
2) kids without dads (a rather larger proportion of the 'missing' dads being irresponsible /antisocial /criminal )

There's no saying that the beneficial effects of having a good dad will also apply if you have a bad dad.


(That being said, 26 out of 27 is a crazy statistic. But whether we address it by enouraging deadbeats to stay with their kids, or by using it as part of the warning flags, remains to be determined)

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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by ed » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:23 pm

What one might argue is that the kids should not have been had in the first place. We have raised single motherhood to something approaching sainthood instead of imposing a value judgement that might lessen its incidence.

Cosby tried and was accused of something.

Single parenthood is not a good thing.
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:29 pm

ed wrote:Cosby tried and was accused of something.
Cause and effect? :lmao:
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by ed » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:35 pm

Maybe. His observations did not go over too well.
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by Giz » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:40 pm

ed wrote:What one might argue is that the kids should not have been had in the first place. We have raised single motherhood to something approaching sainthood instead of imposing a value judgement that might lessen its incidence.

Cosby tried and was accused of something.

Single parenthood is not a good thing.
Yes, I believe "Freakonomics" ascribed a large part of the decrease in violent crime on the impact roe vs wade (i.e. increased abortions ).

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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by Grammatron » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:56 pm

There are people out there who don't know how to raise kids and will likely make their children lives miserable. I have not seen a viable solution to address this problem.

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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:58 pm

Giz wrote:
ed wrote:What one might argue is that the kids should not have been had in the first place. We have raised single motherhood to something approaching sainthood instead of imposing a value judgement that might lessen its incidence.

Cosby tried and was accused of something.

Single parenthood is not a good thing.
Yes, I believe "Freakonomics" ascribed a large part of the decrease in violent crime on the impact roe vs wade (i.e. increased abortions ).
So how does *more* abortion lead to more single parenthood?

There are other things going on here.
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by gnome » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:58 pm

ed wrote:What one might argue is that the kids should not have been had in the first place. We have raised single motherhood to something approaching sainthood instead of imposing a value judgement that might lessen its incidence.

Cosby tried and was accused of something.

Single parenthood is not a good thing.
I would say it isn't married - not married that is the important part, but unplanned pregnancies in general that drives it.

A single mother is usually someone who cannot rationally stay with the father, not one that has a perfectly good father and says, "Welp, I wanna be a single mom, off you go!"

There may be exceptions, but I would expect to find fewer problems with someone that actually planned for single motherhood in some way.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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