Florida School Shooting

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gnome
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by gnome » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:29 pm

I don't see values-judging as a viable policy for reducing social problems. In this case, even if it were effective, would it do more than create social pressure to stay with an abusive or otherwise dysfunctional partnership? I would not expect a better result from that situation than single motherhood. Would you?

If you want to combat unwanted pregnancies, we know ways that work--comprehensive sex education is one. The biggest obstacle to implementation is push back by those very same self-assigned moral guardians.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by Skeeve » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:50 pm

gnome wrote:I don't see values-judging as a viable policy for reducing social problems. In this case, even if it were effective, would it do more than create social pressure to stay with an abusive or otherwise dysfunctional partnership? I would not expect a better result from that situation than single motherhood. Would you?

If you want to combat unwanted pregnancies, we know ways that work--comprehensive sex education is one. The biggest obstacle to implementation is push back by those very same self-assigned moral guardians.
I suppose I should ask what you mean by "comprehensive sex education."

Considering any kid can surf the web and get as much (more) than they need...
Then Skank Of America could start in...

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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by sparks » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:52 pm

"Sex Education" on the web is mostly how-to. Has nothing to do with preventing unwanted pregnancy.
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by ed » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:08 pm

gnome wrote:I don't see values-judging as a viable policy for reducing social problems. In this case, even if it were effective, would it do more than create social pressure to stay with an abusive or otherwise dysfunctional partnership? I would not expect a better result from that situation than single motherhood. Would you?
Two different things. And, yeah, social pressure works. Have you been following the #metoo crowd?

If you want to combat unwanted pregnancies, we know ways that work--comprehensive sex education is one. The biggest obstacle to implementation is push back by those very same self-assigned moral guardians.
I very much doubt that oow births are much due to ignorance. The problem is, in my opinion, social. Sex-ed is like the purity idiots, all of that avails you naught when a high hard one is in the offing.
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by gnome » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:03 pm

Except the numbers say otherwise.

http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/1487
Researchers studied the National Survey of Family Growth to determine the impact of sexuality education on youth sexual risk-taking for young people ages 15-19, and found that teens who received comprehensive sex education were 50 percent less likely to experience pregnancy than those who received abstinence-only education.6

Researcher Douglas Kirby for the National Campaign to End Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy examined studies of prevention programs which had a strong experimental design and used appropriate analysis. Two-thirds of the 48 comprehensive sex ed programs studied had positive effects.

40 percent delayed sexual initiation, reduced the number of sexual partners, or increased condom or contraceptive use.
30 percent reduced the frequency of sex, including a return to abstinence.
60 percent reduced unprotected sex.7

Advocates for Youth undertook exhaustive reviews of existing programs to compile a list of programs that have been proven effective by rigorous evaluation. Twenty-six effective programs were identified, twenty-three of which included comprehensive sex education as at least one component of the program. The other programs were early childhood interventions. Of the 23 effective, comprehensive sex education programs:

Fourteen programs demonstrated a statistically significant delay in the timing of first sex.
13 programs showed statistically significant declines in teen pregnancy, HIV, or other STIs.
14 programs helped sexually active youth to increase their use of condoms.
9 programs demonstrated success at increasing use of contraception other than condoms.
13 programs showed reductions in the number of sex partners and/or increased monogamy among program participants.
10 programs helped sexually active youth to reduce the incidence of unprotected sex.5
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by ed » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:11 am

I don't think that the pregnancies are necessarily unwanted.
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by gnome » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:31 am

ed wrote:
gnome wrote:I don't see values-judging as a viable policy for reducing social problems. In this case, even if it were effective, would it do more than create social pressure to stay with an abusive or otherwise dysfunctional partnership? I would not expect a better result from that situation than single motherhood. Would you?
Two different things. And, yeah, social pressure works. Have you been following the #metoo crowd?
Coming back to this to note that you may have something here after all. I should know better than to make a blanket statement. I'll still argue that in this case I feel like the value you want to promote can do as much harm as good. Or maybe you mean it more narrowly and I'm just worried the stigma would attach to people that didn't deserve it.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:32 am

IIRC, sex education was touted (like 50 or more years ago) as a means of combating the "soaring" rates of out of wedlock pregnancies.

Meaning a rate that today's traditionalists would cite as characteristic of the "good old days".

Whatever the virtues of sex education, clearly something else is going on besides lack of education.
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by gnome » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:05 am

You do realize teen birth rates are at record lows, yes?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by ed » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:25 am

gnome wrote:
ed wrote:
gnome wrote:I don't see values-judging as a viable policy for reducing social problems. In this case, even if it were effective, would it do more than create social pressure to stay with an abusive or otherwise dysfunctional partnership? I would not expect a better result from that situation than single motherhood. Would you?
Two different things. And, yeah, social pressure works. Have you been following the #metoo crowd?
Coming back to this to note that you may have something here after all. I should know better than to make a blanket statement. I'll still argue that in this case I feel like the value you want to promote can do as much harm as good. Or maybe you mean it more narrowly and I'm just worried the stigma would attach to people that didn't deserve it.
The value I want to promote is to not bring children into homes to "keep a man" to "please a man" or because there is some financial benefit from the government. Having a kid is a big deal.
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by gnome » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:29 am

I actually agree with that, though I don't know if any government policy can easily promote that. Has to come from peers and from parents setting a better example. Not sure how to kickstart it.

I was worried you were going more for "women aren't staying with the fathers and marrying them".
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:50 am

gnome wrote:You do realize teen birth rates are at record lows, yes?
I said "out of wedlock" not "teen".

In the black community it's up around 70%.

Among whole population around half that.
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by gnome » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:49 pm

Is it literally "marriages" or single-parent homes that is the issue?
Not that I would be surprised if there is a similar statistic--I just think marriage per se is a red herring in the discussion.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:57 pm

It is lack of stable family life, but that's harder to pin down with a statistic.

And IMO that is neither caused by nor hindered by what is called "sex education".
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by gnome » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:12 pm

I think there's at least some overlap--teenage pregnancy incidence would clearly comprise a part of that figure.

While that statistic it is still higher among blacks than average, it is also still declining over the past 20 years.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:44 pm

The public schools can't teach reading and won't teach math.

Why suppose the Good Soldier Schweik is any good at teaching children about sex?

All we can gather from fluctuating trends is that that any effect it has in negligible compared to what else is going on.
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by gnome » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:00 pm

You're supposing. I'm bringing figures and studies.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:15 pm

gnome wrote:You're supposing. I'm bringing figures and studies.
That prove what?

Some vague correlation between sex education and things getting a little better lately after 50 years of things getting worse and sex education? :roll:
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by gnome » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:44 pm

That prove a difference between states with comprehensive sex education and those with "Abstinence Only" program.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Florida School Shooting

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:53 pm

gnome wrote:That prove a difference between states with comprehensive sex education and those with "Abstinence Only" program.
Abstinence Only TM is obviously shit.

That has nothing to do with the long term trend.

Furthermore, Abstinence Only TM != the way it was before sex education.

Not that I would want to "go back" (not possible anyway), but past changes do not have to be a package deal.

And a radical change of direction is always possible.

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