Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by Pyrrho » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:21 am

Yeah...I am skeptical of simplistic solutions to what appears to be at minimum a moderately complex problem.

It isn't just the guns, but they are part of the problem.

It isn't "mental illness" per se, but that is part of the problem. "Mental illness" covers a wide range of diseases--with shooters, we're dealing with a very small subset, and most shooters have not been mentally ill. We call them that in hindsight but I don't think it's correct.

It isn't religion or video games or society, but certain attitudes are part of the problem, such as the notion that violence is a solution. For example, there is a strong correlation between domestic violence and gun abuse. That's not the only example; there is also the classic "disgruntled worker" situation.

It isn't just a matter of implementing high security measures. Soft targets will remain vulnerable...and even trained cops shoot the wrong people.

etc.

Can't generalize our way out of this. Have to address the problem from multiple angles in a comprehensive way.

I doubt our "leaders" are capable of the necessary levels of cooperation.
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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by Doctor X » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:36 am

The sad truth is, in this particular massacre case, the solutions were there, and those with the ability to do something did nothing.

Meanwhile, in Winchester, Massachusetts, a known guy, with many complaints, sliced up a woman in a library. I suppose he could have killed more with a gun, but the failure is the same. Popehat has a long story about a Doris Dumbassesque level schizophrenic you may recall from causing a controversy in about 2007 for publishing an article "Why I Hate Black People," and calling himself an "Asian Supremacist." The article is a sad story about even the Feds feeling their arms tied.

But we can arrest kids who bite Poptarts in the shape of guns and ban cube-roots. . . .

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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by gnome » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:59 pm

The cube root story I feel is badly misrepresented.

Yes, it started with a conversation over a mathematical symbol. From what I can tell, it got to a "reporting" stage when someone overhearing the conversation (possibly having little idea how it started) thought they heard someone say something threatening. There is little reason to think anyone actually mistook a mathematical symbol for anything dangerous or even that the shape of it was somehow out of line or offensive. Just someone overheard someone talking about guns in what they perceived as a threatening way (clearly, they were mistaken) and raised a flag. That doesn't sound exotic though, so the math made the press.
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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by corplinx » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:57 pm

You guys will remember, I am pro gun control. I think you should get some sort of license that renews in order to purchase/own semi-automatic firearms.

However, nobody is proposing that. The Democrats are doing political theatre and the republicans are starting at "no".

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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by ed » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:43 pm

corplinx wrote:You guys will remember, I am pro gun control. I think you should get some sort of license that renews in order to purchase/own semi-automatic firearms.

However, nobody is proposing that. The Democrats are doing political theatre and the republicans are starting at "no".
I don't disagree, necessary.
Here is the problem: discussing with gun control advocates is much like arguing with right to lifers. Any "agreement" is simply a way station on the road to elimination of the right.

So agreement to liasencing leads to fees that are maybe $5k. Impossible?
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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by Doctor X » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:43 pm

The point remains is more investigation occurred over t3h D34dly ∛ than in this case.

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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by ed » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:01 pm

Yeah. But that is a legitimate threat inasmuch as it diverts attention from important pursuits. Like Gender Studies.
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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by WildCat » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:45 pm

corplinx wrote:You guys will remember, I am pro gun control. I think you should get some sort of license that renews in order to purchase/own semi-automatic firearms.
And what will that accomplish?
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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by corplinx » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:39 pm

Even with Illinois' gun control, it's still too easy for gangs to get guns.

I think semi-autos should be treated a bit more like Class 3. You don't see Class 3 being used in crime.

A bit more regulation could solve the straw purchase issues (and thereby curb some gang violence) on semis but you still need a certification of some cert to weed out the deranged. Certification would also be a Federal carry permit that's 50 state legal. Fuck you New Jersey. It's an interstate travel issue currently.

Give the people doing it right a reward (50 state carry) for a little more paperwork.

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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:46 pm

The Chicago gang situation has more to do with an unwillingness to crack down on gangs as such, rather than any specific legislation about guns or anything else.

It's not merely "out of control" crime, it's politically connected crime.
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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by WildCat » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:58 pm

corplinx wrote:Even with Illinois' gun control, it's still too easy for gangs to get guns.

I think semi-autos should be treated a bit more like Class 3. You don't see Class 3 being used in crime.

A bit more regulation could solve the straw purchase issues (and thereby curb some gang violence) on semis but you still need a certification of some cert to weed out the deranged. Certification would also be a Federal carry permit that's 50 state legal. Fuck you New Jersey. It's an interstate travel issue currently.

Give the people doing it right a reward (50 state carry) for a little more paperwork.
There's a tiny amount of Class 3 firearms in the country, there's probably 100 million semi-autos at least. Gangs aren't going to register their guns. They're not going to get licenses, which is basically what a FOID is now. They'll either steal them or get their stupid girlfriends to make straw purchases for them, just like they do now. Then they'll remove the serial numbers and have an untraceable gun while the stupid girlfriend reports it stolen. And there are not and never will be enough cops to investigate more than a tiny fraction of this.

It will have zero effect on crime rates or gun availability to criminals.

And once it is found to have zero effect on crime rates they'll decide to just ban them, and use the registration lists to confiscate them.
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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by corplinx » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:27 pm

They already have your phone calls and dick pics, unless you buy at gun shows they already know.

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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by WildCat » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:47 pm

corplinx wrote:They already have your phone calls and dick pics, unless you buy at gun shows they already know.
No, they don't. They would have to collect and compile 4473 forms from tens of thousands of FFLs. Then after that contact you something like this "hey do you have that gun you bought in 1991?"

"Nope, that one was sold/lost/stolen 20 years ago."
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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by ed » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:54 pm

Does the democrat proposal = civil war?
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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:04 pm

ed wrote:Does the democrat proposal = civil war?
Not really. At any rate not now.

Because it will not pass and they are just playing chicken.
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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:45 pm

Here's what might actually happen or at least is being seriously discussed, including in Florida:



'Red flag' laws gain steam after Florida shooting

Nikolas Cruz seems to be the poster child for a law like this.
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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by WildCat » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:47 pm

ed wrote:Does the democrat proposal = civil war?
More likely it equals a Red Tide in November.
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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by WildCat » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:52 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:Here's what might actually happen or at least is being seriously discussed, including in Florida:



'Red flag' laws gain steam after Florida shooting

Nikolas Cruz seems to be the poster child for a law like this.
I don't necessarily oppose laws like that, but the devil is in the details. It could be easily abused if there's not strong measures in place to prevent that.

For example, Ed sells someone a car that breaks down a week later and wants his money back. Ed says "nope the sale was as-is". Buyer then reports that Ed is unstrable and threatened to kill him. Police come and round up all his collectible guns and toss them in a pile like cordwood. Years of litigation later and he finally gets his guns back all rusted and scratched and dinged.

And police are notorious for fucking up valuable firearms in their custody. Chicago used to (still does?) engrave an inventory number on the receiver.
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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by Witness » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:19 am

Not about legislation, sorry for that, but a very different drum from the rest of the press:
Science Codex wrote:Mass shooting epidemic? No, schools are 400 percent safer than in the 1990s

A deadly school shooting in Parkland, Florida, has renewed outrage about the availability of guns and led to more calls for action on gun reform. We're being told mass shootings, especially at schools, are an epidemic. But that's not true, notes James Alan Fox, Professor of Criminology, Law, and Public Policy at Northeastern University. There are, on average, just 10 firearms deaths related to schools on average, while far more kids are killed each year from pool drownings (3,536 on average) or bicycle accidents (almost 300.)

First, some data.

Since 1996, there have been 14 multiple victim shootings in schools, or incidents involving 4 or more victims and at least 2 deaths by firearms, excluding the assailant.

Of these, 7 are mass shootings, or incidents involving 4 or more deaths, excluding the assailant.

Using data collected by USA Today, the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Report, Congressional Research Service, Gun Violence Archive, Stanford Geospatial Center and Stanford Libraries, Mother Jones, Everytown for Gun Safety, and a NYPD report on active shooters.Fox and doctoral student Emma Fridel found that on average, mass murders occur between 20 and 30 times per year, and about one of those incidents on average takes place at a school.
[…]
Credit:
Northeastern University
Image

http://www.sciencecodex.com/mass-shooti ... 90s-619283

I will leave it to you Muricans to rip it to shreds, or not. :P

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Re: Gun control in the USA (thread to discuss any specific proposed legislation)

Post by Pyrrho » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:44 am

Doctor X wrote:The sad truth is, in this particular massacre case, the solutions were there, and those with the ability to do something did nothing.

Meanwhile, in Winchester, Massachusetts, a known guy, with many complaints, sliced up a woman in a library. I suppose he could have killed more with a gun, but the failure is the same. Popehat has a long story about a Doris Dumbassesque level schizophrenic you may recall from causing a controversy in about 2007 for publishing an article "Why I Hate Black People," and calling himself an "Asian Supremacist." The article is a sad story about even the Feds feeling their arms tied.

But we can arrest kids who bite Poptarts in the shape of guns and ban cube-roots. . . .

--J.D.
Indeed...if the powers-that-be can't get the current system working as advertised, I've no confidence that they'd get any new system working either.
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