White privilege, hegemony and power

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Re: White privilege, hegemony and power

Postby gnome » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:33 pm

ed wrote:BTW .. ping Bruce ... I am aghast at the concept of MSDS. Look it up. Talk about over regulation.


Ok I'll look it up :)

CCOHS wrote:A Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) is a document that contains information on the potential hazards (health, fire, reactivity and environmental) and how to work safely with the chemical product. It is an essential starting point for the development of a complete health and safety program. It also contains information on the use, storage, handling and emergency procedures all related to the hazards of the material. The MSDS contains much more information about the material than the label. MSDSs are prepared by the supplier or manufacturer of the material. It is intended to tell what the hazards of the product are, how to use the product safely, what to expect if the recommendations are not followed, what to do if accidents occur, how to recognize symptoms of overexposure, and what to do if such incidents occur.


On its face that doesn't sound like a bad idea. Is it the particular implementation that causes you grief? I would think that documenting proper handling procedures must include something at least resembling this.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: White privilege, hegemony and power

Postby ed » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:47 pm

gnome wrote:
ed wrote:BTW .. ping Bruce ... I am aghast at the concept of MSDS. Look it up. Talk about over regulation.


Ok I'll look it up :)

CCOHS wrote:A Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) is a document that contains information on the potential hazards (health, fire, reactivity and environmental) and how to work safely with the chemical product. It is an essential starting point for the development of a complete health and safety program. It also contains information on the use, storage, handling and emergency procedures all related to the hazards of the material. The MSDS contains much more information about the material than the label. MSDSs are prepared by the supplier or manufacturer of the material. It is intended to tell what the hazards of the product are, how to use the product safely, what to expect if the recommendations are not followed, what to do if accidents occur, how to recognize symptoms of overexposure, and what to do if such incidents occur.


On its face that doesn't sound like a bad idea. Is it the particular implementation that causes you grief? I would think that documenting proper handling procedures must include something at least resembling this.


It, theoretically, covers EVERYTHING. If something might be hazardous in some alternate universe, you have to have the sheet. Where? On file, accessible. What is covered EVERYTHING.

For what purpose? I really don't know. Who should be informed? EVERYONE at every level of the State.

I got lost trying to figure out how to comply.

I think I mentioned that back in the day I had a law firm that we used. Big big place in DC. They told me that they found understanding OSHA regs too complicated so they basically ignored the regs. Not ignore as simply not know them.
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Re: White privilege, hegemony and power

Postby gnome » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:39 pm

That sounds like a problem with how the idea is used.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Re: White privilege, hegemony and power

Postby ed » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:43 pm

gnome wrote:That sounds like a problem with how the idea is used.


Bureaucrats succeed if their power base increases. This means more "stuff to do" resulting in more people. They exist independent of measurements of benefit. OSHA is an example of this.
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Re: White privilege, hegemony and power

Postby gnome » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:36 pm

I don't want to strawman you--how would you handle the task if you were setting it up?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Re: White privilege, hegemony and power

Postby ed » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:07 pm

gnome wrote:I don't want to strawman you--how would you handle the task if you were setting it up?


Fair.

I would first ask everyone to understand that one cannot live a riskless life. And, yeah, milligram quantities of parachlorobenzine can kill if administered properly but the likelihood of that is close to zero and to protect against that is simply a fools errand that serves no purpose but to infantalize all of us. Remember also that the current system does not require providing MSDS to the end user. Some number of people die because of poisonings. Sad.

Contents are on containers. Storage places that contain lots of stuff should be known to first responders. If there is an emergency it is childs play to cross reference substances with places.

Some shit has no msds. Does that mean it cannot be sold? Hell no. All we can do is our best and here we have the 80/20 rule writ large. OSHA is after the 10% that takes 90% of the effort and that is where the line has to be drawn.

The thing is that in the tiny areas where I have some expertise, the rules seem stupid, redundant and ofttimes pointless. Why would it be different in areas that I am unfamiliar with?

I guess to really address your question, I'd have to know what the mandate of the agency is. But something tells me that if they force a manufacturer to put signage on the top of a ladder that informs the user to not stand on the top, they are going a bit too far.



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Re: White privilege, hegemony and power

Postby gnome » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:13 pm

Sounds rational. Tell me more about the 80/20 rule?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Re: White privilege, hegemony and power

Postby ed » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:39 pm

During the first decades of OSHAs life they put in place the obvious stuff. As time went on, as with ALL bureaucracies, they had to search to remain meaningful. There were no more big hits, only improvements at the margin. And this stuff was increasingly complicated and the benefit was small. But OSHA officials are not paid based on results, they are paid as all bureaucrats are paid.
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Re: White privilege, hegemony and power

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:50 pm

Hey ed! How about making OSHA efficient by privatizing it?

It could be run by a consortium of insurance companies.

IIRC, Sean Killian (remember him?) suggested this at some point.
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Re: White privilege, hegemony and power

Postby ed » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:58 pm

There are some things that I don't think should be privatized. Prisons, overseas security and the like but OSHA could be.
Unions could be involved too.

That legal firm I mentioned, my lawyer told me that when it came to the regs on white-out they threw up their hands.
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Re: White privilege, hegemony and power

Postby gnome » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:02 pm

I'd be willing to see how that worked out.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Re: White privilege, hegemony and power

Postby ed » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:52 pm

Nothing as long as I worked with them. Why would it? If they can't enforce gun laws, fer chrissakes, what do you expect them to do about toner cartridges? At General Motors? It is there to give the illusion of "doing something"
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Re: White privilege, hegemony and power

Postby gnome » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:17 pm

I'll describe something from a different point of view-- it is easier to see a problem and propose a rule that might avert it, than it is to go back to existing rules and figure out what isn't working or isn't truly needed anymore, or never was. Both are necessary tasks, but we do too little of the latter and that is how we get to what you experience.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2


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