The March for Life

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: The March for Life

Post by Cloverlief » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:35 pm

Grammatron wrote:Image
Of what? That people are paying attention?
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Re: The March for Life

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:50 pm

Is it *guns* that are rampant?

Or is there something wrong with the schools?

Another knife found in Bronx high school classroom where student fatally stabbed classmate
NY Daily News

Not that this story is an argument against gun control as such, but remove the guns and still be faced with the underlying problem with the schools.
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Re: The March for Life

Post by ed » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:47 am

Cloverlief wrote:
ed wrote:
Cloverlief wrote:Yeah, I know right! How dare traumatize children who watched their class mates be slaughtered by yet another fucking privilege white guy actually try to do something about it.

My god, the gall of these children!! It is so Orwellian, you know because, um, I don't know. Perhaps you can explain how it is Orwellian.

corplinx wrote:Umm... is anyone else disturbed at how Orwellian this was?

Mega astroturf operation by big special interests with local school districts assisting and worse censoring wrong think.

what in the fucking fuck.........

CNN was basically using kids as human shields for their OpEd groupthink? And schools participated instead of marking the kids AWOL? wtf
Only about 10 percent of the participants were under 18. The average age of the adults in the crowd was just under 49 years old, which is older than participants at the other marches I’ve surveyed but similar to the age of the average participant at the Million Moms March in 2000, which was also about gun control.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mon ... 2d6145ecf5

So the kids were organized, funded and made AstroTurf by elites like George Cloony and Bloomberg. Some were doubtless sincere, some were along for the ride. Their being children does not make their message more compelling. If anything, it undercuts it. "Do something" is not useful. "Ban guns" is not useful.

I'd take the outrage more seriously, as well as the breathless coverage if the elites paid 1/10 as much attention to demonstrations against an even more murderous practice: abortion. Every year a march, hundreds of thousands. Ever hear of it? If you did it was not from the press.

BTW, I am pro abortion, I am simply sickened by the left's hypocrisy. Their concern for gun violence is as well thought out and as inconsistent and immature as many if not most other SJW "causes". If your outrage is not narrowly channeled in the correct direction it is not relevant. In this case it has nothing, zero to do with respect for life, it is about control.
1) Abortion is not murder. Period. And if you think it is hypocrisy not to shine a light on pure bullshit, there is the problem.
2) Shockingly enough, not only children are sick to death of rampant guns and the death they cause.
3) Yeah, children tend to not have that thing called money to pay for causes so of course they are going to ally with people who have similar goals. It is stupid to suggest that they shouldn't or for some reason that is "Orwellian".
4) Eliminating one danger is important. In 2017 almost 40,000 people were killed with guns. And yes eliminating guns will probably not eliminate those deaths totally, but it will cut a big chunk out of them. Guns are point and click, other means of killing are not.
1. Wishful thinking. I won't argue anything other than third trimester abortion. Murder. A formed child removed and killed. Sorry to make you cry. I might also point out that when abortions are performed for sex selection girl babies tend to be the ones aborted
https://lozierinstitute.org/sex-selecti ... -on-women/
A real feminist triumph methinks

2) Guns are rampant, murders have declined.

3) They are not allying, they are being used. How the hell do kids "Ally"? Please. Using them is reprehensible.

4a) You are not going to eliminate guns, sorry to make you cry. It is a constitutional right and is not going to be relinquished lightly.
4b) If you exclude suicides the number is closer to 15,000. I think suicide is a tough question because I think that that is ones personal decision. Would all those suicides have occurred if a gun wasn't availabe? No. Obviously but thequestion is more complex than we are going to consider here.
4c) What about trafffic deaths. 40,000 and no bullshit with the stats.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/14/traffic ... cture.html
We can reduce them overnight by reducing the speed limit to 35mph. How about it? Here is a lifesaving solution that is eeesy peesy. Problem is it isn't consistent with a lefty narrative so you probably won't hear much about it.

So it seems to me that you are interested in causes rather than preservation of life. Does that sum it up?
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Re: The March for Life

Post by Cloverlief » Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:01 am

ed wrote:
Cloverlief wrote:
ed wrote:
Cloverlief wrote:Yeah, I know right! How dare traumatize children who watched their class mates be slaughtered by yet another fucking privilege white guy actually try to do something about it.

My god, the gall of these children!! It is so Orwellian, you know because, um, I don't know. Perhaps you can explain how it is Orwellian.

corplinx wrote:Umm... is anyone else disturbed at how Orwellian this was?

Mega astroturf operation by big special interests with local school districts assisting and worse censoring wrong think.

what in the fucking fuck.........

CNN was basically using kids as human shields for their OpEd groupthink? And schools participated instead of marking the kids AWOL? wtf
Only about 10 percent of the participants were under 18. The average age of the adults in the crowd was just under 49 years old, which is older than participants at the other marches I’ve surveyed but similar to the age of the average participant at the Million Moms March in 2000, which was also about gun control.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mon ... 2d6145ecf5

So the kids were organized, funded and made AstroTurf by elites like George Cloony and Bloomberg. Some were doubtless sincere, some were along for the ride. Their being children does not make their message more compelling. If anything, it undercuts it. "Do something" is not useful. "Ban guns" is not useful.

I'd take the outrage more seriously, as well as the breathless coverage if the elites paid 1/10 as much attention to demonstrations against an even more murderous practice: abortion. Every year a march, hundreds of thousands. Ever hear of it? If you did it was not from the press.

BTW, I am pro abortion, I am simply sickened by the left's hypocrisy. Their concern for gun violence is as well thought out and as inconsistent and immature as many if not most other SJW "causes". If your outrage is not narrowly channeled in the correct direction it is not relevant. In this case it has nothing, zero to do with respect for life, it is about control.
1) Abortion is not murder. Period. And if you think it is hypocrisy not to shine a light on pure bullshit, there is the problem.
2) Shockingly enough, not only children are sick to death of rampant guns and the death they cause.
3) Yeah, children tend to not have that thing called money to pay for causes so of course they are going to ally with people who have similar goals. It is stupid to suggest that they shouldn't or for some reason that is "Orwellian".
4) Eliminating one danger is important. In 2017 almost 40,000 people were killed with guns. And yes eliminating guns will probably not eliminate those deaths totally, but it will cut a big chunk out of them. Guns are point and click, other means of killing are not.
1. Wishful thinking. I won't argue anything other than third trimester abortion. Murder. A formed child removed and killed. Sorry to make you cry. I might also point out that when abortions are performed for sex selection girl babies tend to be the ones aborted
https://lozierinstitute.org/sex-selecti ... -on-women/
A real feminist triumph methinks

2) Guns are rampant, murders have declined.

3) They are not allying, they are being used. How the hell do kids "Ally"? Please. Using them is reprehensible.

4a) You are not going to eliminate guns, sorry to make you cry. It is a constitutional right and is not going to be relinquished lightly.
4b) If you exclude suicides the number is closer to 15,000. I think suicide is a tough question because I think that that is ones personal decision. Would all those suicides have occurred if a gun wasn't availabe? No. Obviously but thequestion is more complex than we are going to consider here.
4c) What about trafffic deaths. 40,000 and no bullshit with the stats.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/14/traffic ... cture.html
We can reduce them overnight by reducing the speed limit to 35mph. How about it? Here is a lifesaving solution that is eeesy peesy. Problem is it isn't consistent with a lefty narrative so you probably won't hear much about it.

So it seems to me that you are interested in causes rather than preservation of life. Does that sum it up?
1) There is no argument because abortion is not murder and third trimester abortions are very rare and only happen when the fetus isn't viable or the mother's life is in danger. Nobody carries a child to that point and says, "fuck it, I don't want a kid".

2) Gun deaths encompass more than just murder. Almost 40,000 people died due to guns last year, and most of them were accidental and suicide. This should not happen.

3) They are not being used. They are standing for what they believe in and the trauma they had to live through. I know, scary that people might support things you don't like. But demeaning these kids is reprehensible.

4) I am not demanding guns be eliminated, although I am not against that option. I am demanding that they be regulated as in the 2nd amendment "....a well regulated..." That we require all guns no matter how obtained be registered. That all people who wish to use a gun be licensed and required to pass not only a written exam but a practical one and can prove that they know how to properly store a weapon, and be held accountable when that weapon taken by someone who should never have access to it.

4a) Hate to break it to you, but amendments can be re-appealed, and it is time we deal with this incredibly outdated one. Sorry to make you cry.

4b) I do not exclude suicides or accidental shootings. They are a major problem. A person who attempts to commit suicide has a strong possibility of surviving other methods, but guns are permanent. Guns are point and click. And a person who attempts suicide by another means has a chance to survive and get help. I know, I have attempted to kill myself 4 times in my life. And even though at the times I felt hopeless and that the world and the people I love would be better off without me, I got help, and I survived to see things differently.

4c) What about cancer? How many people die from cancer? We should just make murder legal since people die anyway. Your argument is absurd. People may die in traffic accidents, but that doesn't ameliorate the problem with guns.
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Re: The March for Life

Post by ed » Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:09 am

As an aside, you are comfortable with only having agents of the government armed?
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Re: The March for Life

Post by Cloverlief » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:02 am

ed wrote:As an aside, you are comfortable with only having agents of the government armed?
No. I don't think police should be armed either.
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Re: The March for Life

Post by Grammatron » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:59 am

Cloverlief wrote:
Grammatron wrote:Image
Of what? That people are paying attention?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Revol ... _Televised

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Re: The March for Life

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Re: The March for Life

Post by sparks » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:26 am

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Re: The March for Life

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:31 pm

Cloverlief wrote:
ed wrote:As an aside, you are comfortable with only having agents of the government armed?
No. I don't think police should be armed either.
Very good.

Only criminals.
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Re: The March for Life

Post by ed » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:58 pm

Cloverlief wrote: 1) There is no argument because abortion is not murder and third trimester abortions are very rare and only happen when the fetus isn't viable or the mother's life is in danger. Nobody carries a child to that point and says, "fuck it, I don't want a kid".
"Nobody". OK. So then is the principle that if something is a threat rarely, we should not legislate against it?
2) Gun deaths encompass more than just murder. Almost 40,000 people died due to guns last year, and most of them were accidental and suicide. This should not happen.
They do. I think that suicide is a completely seperate issue .
3) They are not being used. They are standing for what they believe in and the trauma they had to live through. I know, scary that people might support things you don't like. But demeaning these kids is reprehensible.
Sorry, no. Kids don't organize big protests with professionally printed signs. Astroturf.
4) I am not demanding guns be eliminated, although I am not against that option. I am demanding that they be regulated as in the 2nd amendment "....a well regulated..." That we require all guns no matter how obtained be registered. That all people who wish to use a gun be licensed and required to pass not only a written exam but a practical one and can prove that they know how to properly store a weapon, and be held accountable when that weapon taken by someone who should never have access to it.
I demand that current laws be enforced. Then we can talk. Do you know anything about gun laws?
4a) Hate to break it to you, but amendments can be re-appealed, and it is time we deal with this incredibly outdated one. Sorry to make you cry.
With respect, you are clueless. Repealing an article in the Bill of Rights has zero precedent and is frightening in it's import. There are some that would like to do the same with the First.
4b) I do not exclude suicides or accidental shootings. They are a major problem. A person who attempts to commit suicide has a strong possibility of surviving other methods, but guns are permanent. Guns are point and click. And a person who attempts suicide by another means has a chance to survive and get help. I know, I have attempted to kill myself 4 times in my life. And even though at the times I felt hopeless and that the world and the people I love would be better off without me, I got help, and I survived to see things differently.
4 times. OK
4c) What about cancer? How many people die from cancer? We should just make murder legal since people die anyway. Your argument is absurd. People may die in traffic accidents, but that doesn't ameliorate the problem with guns
Don't be absurd. I am simply establishing that life, per se, is not your concern, trendy politics are. That is to say that your position is unprincipled in the most literal sense. Arm waving about third trimester abortions and abortion in general, conjuring up irrelevancies when presented with a totally human cause of major death that could be easily (though inconveniently) lessened all speak to trendy politics rather than a position based on principle. Your demand for laws and changing the constitution without the slightest evidence that you have the most meager understanding of the state of gun laws in the US fundamentally undermines your arguments.

How about this: Make it federal law that all sworn law enforcement professionals have a legal duty to defend people. That does not exist now and that is why no lawsuit against the cops in parkland will prevail. Did you know that LE is not legally obligated to protect you? Did you?
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Re: The March for Life

Post by gnome » Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:29 pm

ed wrote:
Cloverlief wrote: 1) There is no argument because abortion is not murder and third trimester abortions are very rare and only happen when the fetus isn't viable or the mother's life is in danger. Nobody carries a child to that point and says, "fuck it, I don't want a kid".
"Nobody". OK. So then is the principle that if something is a threat rarely, we should not legislate against it?
We can and do legislate against it. States have pretty much free reign at that stage of the pregnancy to write the laws as they see fit.
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Re: The March for Life

Post by WildCat » Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:37 pm

Cloverlief wrote:4) I am not demanding guns be eliminated, although I am not against that option. I am demanding that they be regulated as in the 2nd amendment "....a well regulated..." That we require all guns no matter how obtained be registered. That all people who wish to use a gun be licensed and required to pass not only a written exam but a practical one and can prove that they know how to properly store a weapon, and be held accountable when that weapon taken by someone who should never have access to it.
1. "well regulated", in the 2A, means "well-practiced and proficient". It has nothing to do with government regulations, and a "well regulated militia" is defined in Federalist No. 29. Nowhere in the 2A does it suggest that arms be "well regulated".

2.What other right requires a license to practice it in your own home? And on what legal basis is one ever liable for misuse of an item after it is stolen? And when has registration ever been useful in preventing or solving crimes? A few minutes with a Dremel tool and any gun is untraceable anyway. Registration is primarily a means to prevent poor people from owning firearms, as registration fees are expensive and require yearly renewals.

As for suicide there are many methods equally as effective as firearms. And these are the methods people use when they really want to commit suicide, rather than the methods used when they just want attention. The USA suicide rate is right at the western European average, despite the country being awash in guns. Guns only change the method of suicide, not the rate of suicide. And be honest here - even single-shot muzzleloaders would have to be banned to prevent gun suicides , because suicides don't require more than 1 shot. And even then the suicide rate would remain the same as people just hang themselves, or jump off of high places, or lay on the 3rd rail or in front of a train, or drive into a wall at 80 mph or the myriad other ways to do it.

Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world despite being virtually gun-free.

And I'm not willing to give up my rights to effective self defense solely to virtue signal.
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Re: The March for Life

Post by Doctor X » Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:24 pm

People declare things as if declaration makes them so.

Abortion, however, is murder. The question is whether or not it is justifiable homicide.

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Re: The March for Life

Post by ed » Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:24 pm

ScreenShot357.jpg
Just wanna cross post the UK experience here.
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Re: The March for Life

Post by gnome » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:16 pm

Are those actual spikes? I would think that would be somewhat mirrored by the line.
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Re: The March for Life

Post by ed » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:14 pm

Doctor X wrote:People declare things as if declaration makes them so.

Abortion, however, is murder. The question is whether or not it is justifiable homicide.

In the rain.

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My feeling, as if it matters, is that it is perhaps the most gut wrenching and relationship threatening thing one can do. I think that such a decision is, or ought not be taken lightly but, make no mistake, it is murder. The justification is, as they say, between you and your God.
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Re: The March for Life

Post by ed » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:15 pm

gnome wrote:Are those actual spikes? I would think that would be somewhat mirrored by the line.
Sorry, the only pop data I could find was the census. Every 10 years. And I can't mix graph types in Excel.
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Re: The March for Life

Post by Nyarlathotep » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:01 pm

Doctor X wrote:People declare things as if declaration makes them so.

Abortion, however, is murder. The question is whether or not it is justifiable homicide.

In the rain.

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Murder, by definition, is unjustifiable. Not all killings are murder. Justifiable homicide is not murder by definition
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Re: The March for Life

Post by Doctor X » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:23 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:Murder, by definition, is unjustifiable.
No, it is not.

I refer you to the observation regarding declarations I made previously.

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