Fuck it, legalize it all!

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by Grammatron » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:05 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:So what was the point about George Clooney?
Hypocrisy.

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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:06 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:So what was the point about George Clooney?
Hypocrisy.
ed or George or both? :BigGrin3:
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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by ed » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:15 pm

You ever see this
Image
No knowledgeable person would ever shoot a gun this way. How the hell did this idiocy develop?

Know where it originated? Miami Vice. That was how you could tell it was a bad guy. That and that the shooter was black.

The idea of firearms being a debating tool is a creation of hollywood. It is iconic. And in an era where gun shaped clouds are verboten in schools, the silence of hollywood types on their role in mainstreaming the gun culture is pretty telling.

I would love to see them take a pledge to not act in any film where a firearm is present.
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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by Grammatron » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:25 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:So what was the point about George Clooney?
Hypocrisy.
ed or George or both? :BigGrin3:
George.

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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by sparks » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:52 pm

ed wrote:You ever see this
Image
No knowledgeable person would ever shoot a gun this way. How the hell did this idiocy develop?

Know where it originated? Miami Vice. That was how you could tell it was a bad guy. That and that the shooter was black.

The idea of firearms being a debating tool is a creation of hollywood. It is iconic. And in an era where gun shaped clouds are verboten in schools, the silence of hollywood types on their role in mainstreaming the gun culture is pretty telling.

I would love to see them take a pledge to not act in any film where a firearm is present.
"If he's holding it high
He's telling a lie"

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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by corplinx » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:11 pm

Less guns means less gun crime. Less cars mean less car wrecks.

Why do the systemic failures in Broward county mean I should give up my freedom?

If we are marching for teen lives, let's see what is taking them and address it with reason.

I'm a no good commie because I think gun ownership should require licensing and training. There is no party with my stance. It's either "do nothing" or "ban the scary guns based on muh feelings".

There isn't largely rational middle ground.

Less guns means less gun crime. Herp derp

But how are we generating spree killers over the past few decades while we've always had guns?

Fuck those of us who actually want real answers and not just "DO SOMETHING BECAUSE MY FEELINGS"

But your feelings are personal. Maybe the issue hits close to home.

I'm not going to use my loss and heartache to try to take away your rights. It's a suit of armor made of bullshit. I can't criticize because its a child, or someone grieving, or some other imaginary shield.

It's bullshit and its offensive to me to use it as a shield.

I think many anti gun control excuses just excuses. The march for life is bullshit and David Hogg is a fucking psychopath.

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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by Doctor X » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:12 pm

Sigorney Weaver only agreed to do Aliens III if there were no guns in the film.








The film sucked.










Wait. . . .

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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by ed » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:46 pm

corplinx wrote:
I'm a no good commie because I think gun ownership should require licensing and training.
So you think that with better training murders will be ... what? Cleaner? more efficient?

Watch Nyrl say that I am demanding that killer be trained. :D
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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by Doctor X » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:50 pm

corplinx wrote:There isn't largely rational middle ground.
There has not been one for a very long time on most issues.

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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by Grammatron » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:04 pm

Doctor X wrote:
corplinx wrote:There isn't largely rational middle ground.
There has not been one for a very long time on most issues.

--J.D.
Largely rational people don't sit on social media and forums all day dissecting issues until the discussion loses all meaning.

Wait...

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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by Cloverlief » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:03 am

WildCat wrote:
Cloverlief wrote:
WildCat wrote:
Cloverlief wrote:
WildCat wrote:The contention that more guns = more murders is complete, utter bullshit and easily shown to be false. Besides my Illinois example Mexico has one of the lowest rates of gun ownership on the planet - and one of the highest murder rates.
No the contention is that less guns, less murder by guns. And that guns one and only purpose is to kill. Let's eliminate that.
Already disproven by Mexico. Very few guns, very high murder rate.

You're just spouting bullshit, and easily debunked bullshit at that.

Did you forget this is a skeptic's forum?
You seem to have done so. You and Ed seem to have confused this for the asshole and fallacy forums.

And again for the idiots in the back (that would be you and Ed), Correlation and Causation. Look it up.
You're now in the rarified realm of Creationism, whereby no data or evidence can falsify your hypothesis.
Now you are just throwing out word salad. I find it amusing that when Ed couldn't back up his arguments, he went to insults and so did you.

Weak. You and Ed both obviously need a good verbal beat down. Good thing I am here to deliver it.
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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by Cloverlief » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:06 am

ed wrote:
Cloverlief wrote: No the contention is that less guns, less murder by guns. And that guns one and only purpose is to kill. Let's eliminate that.
This is banal and stupid, frankly. "Get rid of cars and car related deaths will cease"

Useless and circular.

This is why I want to stay with principles. Are you concerned with the preservation of human life or merely how it might be taken? If the latter, we are talking style is all. The homicide rate in the UK seems to have actually increased after all of their restrictive gun laws. Would you congratulate yourself that the lost lives were not taken by firearms? What a shallow victory.
And we are back to Fuck it, legalize it all. Because you are so busy fucking your guns, you can't make a rational thought. Cars have other purposes than just killing. Guns do not.

Do you congratulate yourself every time someone dies from a gun? I agree, that is a shallow victory, and a heartless selfish one at that.
Chani

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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by Cloverlief » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:08 am

ed wrote:
Cloverlief wrote:
WildCat wrote:
Cloverlief wrote:
WildCat wrote:The contention that more guns = more murders is complete, utter bullshit and easily shown to be false. Besides my Illinois example Mexico has one of the lowest rates of gun ownership on the planet - and one of the highest murder rates.
No the contention is that less guns, less murder by guns. And that guns one and only purpose is to kill. Let's eliminate that.
Already disproven by Mexico. Very few guns, very high murder rate.

You're just spouting bullshit, and easily debunked bullshit at that.

Did you forget this is a skeptic's forum?
You seem to have done so. You and Ed seem to have confused this for the asshole and fallacy forums.

And again for the idiots in the back (that would be you and Ed), Correlation and Causation. Look it up.
Weeeeellllllll ... yeah correlation NEQ causation. However many models are correlative and it depends what questions are being asked and how the models are constructed.

If there were a strong relationship between guns and suicide one would expect there to be a strong correlation particularly when you have repeated measures across nations, cultures and socio-economic conditions. You might do some sort of ANOVAR on the data presented with those variables included but, on the surface, I would expect some new variable (or composite variable) to explain the bulk of the variance.

We did stats in my first company and what we used to tell the new people was "you can't ignore what you know". Meaning that if you got a positive price elasticity (ie price goes up, sales volume goes up) you damn well better be sure of that finding because otherwise you'll be laughed out of the room (n.b. Contac took off after they increased the price back in the day. Price and "effectiveness" are somehow linked in consumers minds). Where was I ... oh yeah.

Saying Correlation NEQ causation is a bit like the ignorant saying "you can't yell fire in a crowded theater" as an example of how the first amendment is limited. If you say the latter to a lawyer he will laugh at you. If you say the former, without qualification, the applied statistician will look at you with a raised eyebrow and a look of infinite superiority. Consider yourself looked at.

In the present case, there is no strong relationship between suicide and guns. Neither positive nor negative. If there were, you would see it. To claim that the IS such a relationship, given the data presented, it seems to me that the onus would be on the claimant to suggest HOW such a relationship is being masked. Because, to torture another quote, you really can't prove a negative. Which is what you are asking for, no? You are saying "prove that there is no relationship".

Your trite example of ice cream and temperature or whatever it was is, in case you haven't noticed, a positive, strong relationship, not an essentially random one. If your example were relevant it would apply if there were a strong relationship between guns and suicide. But then you'd be arguing against yourself. Do you see that?

I've actually got a leg up on you lot because I have actually fooled around with this sort of cross country data for years (well, not continuously) and whatever relationships there may be between guns and homicide rates are weak. The banal finding (which is really too stupid to spend much time on) is that guns are implicated in gun deaths. <yawn>. The issue at hand is loss of life.
Do you see that you have argued yourself into a fallacy and don't even care? Just as long as you still have guns. For what purpose? Oh protection. Yeah. Just wear a condom or not. Whatever.
Chani

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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by ed » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:46 am

Sorry. You don't see what you did. Pay attention. Read what I wrote again. You basically undercut all of your arguments.
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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by WildCat » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:50 am

Cloverlief wrote:Now you are just throwing out word salad. I find it amusing that when Ed couldn't back up his arguments, he went to insults and so did you.

Weak. You and Ed both obviously need a good verbal beat down. Good thing I am here to deliver it.
What evidence would falsify your hypothesis that "more guns equals more murder"?
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by WildCat » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:52 am

Cloverlief wrote: Cars have other purposes than just killing. Guns do not.
Damn, you mean I've been using them wrong all these years?
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by xouper » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:23 am

Cloverlief wrote:Cars have other purposes than just killing. Guns do not.
That is factually incorrect.

Guns have several legitimate and lawful purposes that do not include killing people.

Fact: In the US, guns are used far more often for self defense than they are for killing people illegally.

Your claim that guns do not have any other purpose than just killing is total bunk.

Just because some people use guns unlawfully is not sufficient reason to take guns away from those who use guns for lawful purposes.

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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by Cloverlief » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:27 am

xouper wrote:
Cloverlief wrote:Cars have other purposes than just killing. Guns do not.
That is factually incorrect.

Guns have several legitimate and lawful purposes that do not include killing people.

Fact: In the US, guns are used far more often for self defense than they are for killing people illegally.

Your claim that guns do not have any other purpose than just killing is total bunk.

Just because some people use guns unlawfully is not sufficient reason to take guns away from those who use guns for lawful purposes.
Guns one and only design is to be a weapon to kill efficiently. So, no it is not factually incorrect.
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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by Cloverlief » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:28 am

WildCat wrote:
Cloverlief wrote:Now you are just throwing out word salad. I find it amusing that when Ed couldn't back up his arguments, he went to insults and so did you.

Weak. You and Ed both obviously need a good verbal beat down. Good thing I am here to deliver it.
What evidence would falsify your hypothesis that "more guns equals more murder"?
You do like to build strawmen. Does it make you feel better when you knock them down?
Chani

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Re: Fuck it, legalize it all!

Post by xouper » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:18 am

Cloverlief wrote:
xouper wrote:
Cloverlief wrote:Cars have other purposes than just killing. Guns do not.
That is factually incorrect.

Guns have several legitimate and lawful purposes that do not include killing people.

Fact: In the US, guns are used far more often for self defense than they are for killing people illegally.

Your claim that guns do not have any other purpose than just killing is total bunk.

Just because some people use guns unlawfully is not sufficient reason to take guns away from those who use guns for lawful purposes.
Guns one and only design is to be a weapon to kill efficiently. So, no it is not factually incorrect.
There are now two problems with your argument.

1. It is not true that "guns one and only design is to be a weapon to kill efficiently".

2. You claimed that guns have no "other purposes than just killing".

Both of your claims are factually incorrect.

Fact: Guns have lawful purposes that do not require anyone to be killed: sport shooting, self defense, hunting, etc.

That fact alone clearly refutes your stated claim that guns have no "other purposes than just killing".

Fact: Law enforcement officers do not carry guns for the primary purpose of killing people. They carry guns for the primary purpose of deterrence and for self defense of themselves and others.

So again, your claims are refuted by the facts.

On the matter of using guns for the primary purpose of self defense, consider this key question: When an attacker is intent on doing you harm, which would you rather have for self defense, a banana or a gun?

(Sidebar: If you wish to deflect from the point I am making by arguing "false dilemma", I have a rebuttal to that too.)

Answer: When an attacker sees a gun pointed at him, he is immediately aware of the threat to his own safety and often runs away. (And I can cite numerous real-world examples of that scenario.) A banana would not cause the attacker to fear for his safety, and that's what makes a gun so effective for self defense.

Fact: FBI statistics show that an armed victim of a violent crime generally (on average) has a better outcome than an unarmed victim.

Fact: This lawful use of a gun for self defense is the more common purpose of a gun, even when no one gets killed.

So your objection that guns are only designed to kill is not relevant to the reason most law abiding people have guns. Most people do not have guns for the purpose of killing people, and that renders your objection irrelevant.

I will say this again, since you did not address it: just because some people use guns unlawfully is not sufficient reason to take guns away from those who use guns for lawful purposes. Contrary to your claim, guns do have lawful purposes that do not involve killing.