Examples of self defense with a gun

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8763
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 222 times
Been thanked: 134 times

Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:43 am

The claim is often made that guns have no other purpose than to kill.

To refute that claim with actual evidence (and not just hypothetical scenarios), I will post examples in this thread of guns used for the legitimate and lawful purpose of self defense.

AR-15 used to stop attacker in Oswego

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/a ... story.html
March 1, 2018, Oswego, Illinois

Dave Thomas was getting ready for work Monday afternoon when he heard women screaming in his apartment building in Oswego.

Thomas, a gun instructor, peeked out the door and saw blood in the hallway. He went to his bedroom, where a handgun and an AR-15 assault-style rifle were lying on the bed. He picked up the rifle.

. . . Police said Thomas confronted a man who was stabbing another man in the apartment complex on the 100 block of Harbor Drive.

The man with the knife ran off when Thomas threatened to shoot him.

“He was a half a breath away from getting his head blown off and he knew that," Thomas, 41, said. "That's why he put the knife down."

. . . A sheriff's spokesman, Detective Bryan Harl, credited Thomas with preventing the situation from getting worse, and said the investigation showed he'd done nothing criminal.

"He did in the moment what he thought was going to de-escalate this situation and stop any further violence or loss of life and for that he is to be praised," Harl said.

. . . Thomas believes if he'd grabbed the smaller gun, the threat would have been less effective and he would have ended up shooting the man.

"I think this is a perfect example of why... every single law-abiding citizen should have an AR-15," Thomas said, adding that they should have proper training.
Notice three things about this example.
  1. No shots were fired. The gun served its intended purpose without killing anyone. The police determined this was a legitimate and lawful use of a gun.
  2. The gun used was an AR-15, which appears to be a better choice than a handgun in this situation. The question is often asked, why does anyone "need" an AR-15. This incident shows one reason why. (More examples to come later in this thread showing more reasons why.)
  3. Although it's impossible to say for sure, there's a good probability that this use of a gun saved someone's life. Imagine that, a gun that saved a life instead of taking one.

Stay tuned. Given the number of examples I have readily available, this could become a rather lengthy thread designed to demonstrate unequivocally that, contrary to what some people claim, guns do indeed have a legitimate and lawful purpose apart from killing people.

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8763
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 222 times
Been thanked: 134 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:26 am

Another recent example of a successful use of a gun for the purpose of self defense:

Hesperia homeowner shoots burglary suspect

http://abc7.com/hesperia-homeowner-shoo ... t/3283847/
March 30, 2018, HESPERIA, Calif. (KABC) --

A homeowner shot a man who was allegedly trying to break into his Hesperia home Thursday night, and the intruder is now in critical condition.

. . . The suspect tried to gain entry through the front window of the house. The homeowner armed himself when he heard the break-in occurring, and as the suspect tried to enter the residence, the victim fired his weapon, police said.

. . . As for the homeowner, it appears he will not be facing charges.

"We're glad when any homeowner protects themselves, that's what they need to do in these situations," said Hesperia Police Sgt. Marc Bracco. "That's why you're allowed to carry a firearm in your residence."
From the report, it seems clear the police officer agrees this was a legitimate and lawful use of a gun for the purpose of self defense.

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 13861
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 337 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by WildCat » Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:37 am

Motorist With Concealed-Carry Saves Victim From 3-On-1 Beat-Down And Robbery
An armed suburban man with a concealed-carry license intervened in a 3-on-1 beating and robbery in River North yesterday evening, according to a witness and police.

The victim was in the 700 block of North Clark around 8:30 p.m. when three offenders wearing white surgical masks attacked him and began taking his property, police said.

A passing motorist who saw the robbery unfold pulled over, unholstered his concealed firearm and intervened in the attack. The three offenders fled westbound on Chicago Avenue as the concealed-carry holder protected the victim, according to a witness.

The driver, who lives in Mt. Prospect, returned to his vehicle and drove away after stabilizing the situation, a witness reported.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 13861
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 337 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by WildCat » Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:46 am

Self-defense shooting incidents in Chicago

Year Killed/Wounded
2015 5/3
2016 12/10
2017 12/9
2018 1/1

Most of these are by CCL holders, concealed carry licenses were first issued in Illinois in early 2014.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8763
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 222 times
Been thanked: 134 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:53 am

Another one from Chicago, from three years ago, but still an excellent and timely example:
The Chicago Tribune wrote:
Uber driver, licensed to carry gun, shoots gunman in Logan Square

By Geoff Ziezulewicz Chicago Tribune
April 20, 2015

Authorities say no charges will be filed against an Uber driver who shot and wounded a gunman who opened fire on a crowd of people in Logan Square over the weekend.

The driver had a concealed-carry permit and acted in the defense of himself and others, Assistant State's Attorney Barry Quinn said in court Sunday.

A group of people had been walking in front of the driver around 11:50 p.m. Friday in the 2900 block of North Milwaukee Avenue when Everardo Custodio, 22, began firing into the crowd, Quinn said. ...
When seconds count, the police are mere minutes away.

It's yet another example of how a (civilian) gun saves more lives than it takes.

This example contradicts claims by Shannon Watts that this kind of thing never happens, a good guy with a gun stopping a mass shooting.

Watts is the founder of the gun control group "Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America".

User avatar
shemp
Posts: 5084
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:16 pm
Title: gnat
Has thanked: 628 times
Been thanked: 448 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by shemp » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:09 am

I wonder how many firearm murders, suicides and accidental killings there are for each of your anecdotes. Maybe we should start a thread for examples of these; it would easily run to a thousand pages. But keep up the good work, suckers!
"It is not I who is mad! It is I who is crazy!" -- Ren Hoek

Freedom of choice
Is what you got
Freedom from choice
Is what you want

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 13861
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 337 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by WildCat » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:22 am

shemp wrote:I wonder how many firearm murders, suicides and accidental killings there are for each of your anecdotes. Maybe we should start a thread for examples of these; it would easily run to a thousand pages. But keep up the good work, suckers!
Again, suicides have squat to do with guns, there's a million other ways to do it.

Accidental killings are at an all-time low in raw numbers even as the number of firearms and firearm owners is at an all-time high.

As for murders over 80% of them are of career criminals, gangbangers, and others with a felony record engaged in a criminal lifestyle. I'm not in that risk category. But I like to be armed to protect myself from those who are.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
sparks
Posts: 14016
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Friar McWallclocks Bar -- Where time stands still while you lean over!
Has thanked: 1926 times
Been thanked: 593 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by sparks » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:45 am

"Again, suicides have squat to do with guns, "

Opinion noted. Irrelevant, but noted. Shemp proposes a death by gun thread. Not a death by gun excluding suicide thread.
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8763
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 222 times
Been thanked: 134 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:46 am

shemp wrote:I wonder how many firearm murders, suicides and accidental killings there are for each of your anecdotes.
That's a fair question.

According to a CDC study (in 2013) commissioned by President Obama, the answer is less than one.

The CDC reports that the number of self defense uses of a gun far outnumber the criminal uses of guns.

https://www.nap.edu/catalog/18319/prior ... d-violence

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8763
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 222 times
Been thanked: 134 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:19 am

shemp wrote:I wonder how many firearm murders, suicides and accidental killings there are for each of your anecdotes.
Here's an example of the kind of self defense use that often doesn't make it into the officially reported statistics.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/08/30/woman-uses-her-gun-to-ward-off-abduction/ wrote:
Woman Uses Her Gun To Ward Off Abduction
08/30/2014

An Ohio woman who is licensed to carry a gun but had only recently started carrying one for protection put it to good use earlier this week.

Dinah Burns was out walking her dog, Gracie, on a path near an elementary school in Lancaster on Monday when two men approached her with a baseball bat and threatened to abduct her.

“Two gentlemen came out of the woods, one holding a baseball bat, and said ‘You’re coming with us,’” Burns told WBNS, adding that Gracie was little help in deterring the men.

. . . “As I was doing that the other gentleman came toward me and raised the baseball bat. And, I pointed the gun at them and said, ‘I have this and I’m not afraid to use it.’”

The men backed off and left, . . .
That's another example of successful use of a gun for the legitimate and lawful purpose of self defense and no shots fired, once again refuting the claim that the only purpose for a gun is to kill. The mere threat of lead poisoning is often sufficient.

Sidebar: I would not have characterized the attackers as "gentlemen".

User avatar
Pyrrho
Posts: 25882
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:17 am
Title: Man in Black
Location: Division 6
Has thanked: 2714 times
Been thanked: 2767 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Pyrrho » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:42 am

Is the number of lives saved by self-defense with a gun greater or lesser than the number of lives lost to gun violence?

Likewise for the number of injuries avoided versus injuries inflicted.
The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 13861
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 337 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by WildCat » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:23 pm

sparks wrote:"Again, suicides have squat to do with guns, "

Opinion noted. Irrelevant, but noted. Shemp proposes a death by gun thread. Not a death by gun excluding suicide thread.
It would be relevant only if guns were correlated with suicide rates, which they're not.

Age, social and geographic isolation, amount of sunlight in the day, religion, culture, and other factors are associated with suicide rates but not guns.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 70830
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 3176 times
Been thanked: 1182 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:58 pm

In addition to these dramatic anecdotes, please note there is also a sort of "herd immunity" as with vaccinations.

Less of certain types tyranny and of crime in communities with a legally armed populace.

So even pacifists can play.
Gandhi (yes that one, not Indira) wrote:Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
ed
Posts: 33059
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: Rhino of the Florida swamp
Has thanked: 440 times
Been thanked: 754 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by ed » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Pyrrho wrote:Is the number of lives saved by self-defense with a gun greater or lesser than the number of lives lost to gun violence?
I think that you have two elements to "gun violence". One is the activity of criminal gangs in cities like Chicago, Baltimore and Washington DC. Comparing anything to them suggests that one believes that "getting rid of guns" will disarm these thugs and make the problem go away. I reject that possibility, vehemently.

The other is accidental shootings and criminal misuse of firearms by otherwise law abiding owners. Now, you might snarkily point out that a person that makes criminal use of a gun is hardly "law abiding". True, but I distinguish between a person whose job description is "criminal" and one whose crime is a one off.
Likewise for the number of injuries avoided versus injuries inflicted.
See above.
Wenn ich Kultur höre, entsichere ich meinen Browning!

User avatar
ed
Posts: 33059
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: Rhino of the Florida swamp
Has thanked: 440 times
Been thanked: 754 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by ed » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:03 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:In addition to these dramatic anecdotes, please note there is also a sort of "herd immunity" as with vaccinations.

Less of certain types tyranny and of crime in communities with a legally armed populace.

So even pacifists can play.
Gandhi (yes that one, not Indira) wrote:Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.
I have noted that people at gun shows and at ranges are remarkably polite.
Wenn ich Kultur höre, entsichere ich meinen Browning!

User avatar
shemp
Posts: 5084
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:16 pm
Title: gnat
Has thanked: 628 times
Been thanked: 448 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by shemp » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:04 pm

xouper wrote:
shemp wrote:I wonder how many firearm murders, suicides and accidental killings there are for each of your anecdotes.
That's a fair question.

According to a CDC study (in 2013) commissioned by President Obama, the answer is less than one.

The CDC reports that the number of self defense uses of a gun far outnumber the criminal uses of guns.

https://www.nap.edu/catalog/18319/prior ... d-violence

I don't have time to go fishing through the entire book trying to find the statistic that you claim backs you up. Point directly to your statistic and I will read it.

Meanwhile, in the description of the book:
In 2010, more than 105,000 people were injured or killed in the United States as the result of a firearm-related incident. Recent, highly publicized, tragic mass shootings in Newtown, CT; Aurora, CO; Oak Creek, WI; and Tucson, AZ, have sharpened the American public's interest in protecting our children and communities from the harmful effects of firearm violence. While many Americans legally use firearms for a variety of activities, fatal and nonfatal firearm violence poses a serious threat to public safety and welfare.
"It is not I who is mad! It is I who is crazy!" -- Ren Hoek

Freedom of choice
Is what you got
Freedom from choice
Is what you want

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 13861
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 337 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by WildCat » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:07 pm

shemp wrote:
In 2010, more than 105,000 people were injured or killed in the United States as the result of a firearm-related incident. Recent, highly publicized, tragic mass shootings in Newtown, CT; Aurora, CO; Oak Creek, WI; and Tucson, AZ, have sharpened the American public's interest in protecting our children and communities from the harmful effects of firearm violence. While many Americans legally use firearms for a variety of activities, fatal and nonfatal firearm violence poses a serious threat to public safety and welfare.
Are there other activities that are equally or more dangerous that you'd like to ban?

And break down those stats for criminal vs. non-criminal incidents.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
ed
Posts: 33059
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: Rhino of the Florida swamp
Has thanked: 440 times
Been thanked: 754 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by ed » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:10 pm

Again: what is the principle? Are we trying to lessen death or are we going to adopt a trendy cause?

And stamping your feet and holding your breath as you demand that your convenient definitions be blindly accepted in order to make your belief system pure is simply a non-starter.
Wenn ich Kultur höre, entsichere ich meinen Browning!

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 13861
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 337 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by WildCat » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:27 pm

Last year Chicago had 3,561 people shot. 21 of those were legal civilian self-defense, 23 were police shootings. Nearly all the rest were the result of criminal/gang activity, I'd say 100% because I can't think of a single such incident from a legal gun owner.

I'd bet the national stats are much the same, I'd guess well over 95% of incidents are from criminal use by people with long criminal records.

That's why I think Corplinx's demand for licensing and training are bullshit, a solution in search of a problem. The gangbangers and other felons aren't going to be licensed and trained, they'll buy guns from the black market just as they do now. And that's the problem with just about every proposed gun law, they will affect only the law-abiding while the criminals will remain unaffected. And any and all attempts to crack down on criminal use by imposing heavier penalties are decried as "racist" by the same people demanding the laws affecting only the non-criminals.

Meanwhile, how do the actual criminals getting caught with guns fare in our justice system?
Chicago police said they found a loaded handgun lying in the grass along Recreation Drive near the car where two gangbangers were hanging out late Friday night. But prosecutors refused to file weapons charges in the case because the gun couldn't be tested for fingerprints on the weekend, police said.

Instead, Alfonso Fierro and two friends are charged with being on park property after hours and other minor offenses.

Fierro, known as “Little A,” is currently awaiting trial for allegedly possessing a loaded handgun in a car this winter. And one of his other arrestees is a felony gun offender.

Around 11:50 p.m. on Friday, 19th District (Town Hall) cops were enforcing the curfew along the 3600 block of North Recreation Drive, a known gang hangout that has been the site of several shootings.

The officers came upon a car where 27-year-old Fierro, 20-year-old Angel Gontarz, and a 17-year-old female juvenile were hanging out, according to police.

A police spokesman said that upon seeing police blue lights, Fierro ran from the scene and was taken into custody after a short foot pursuit. Fierro was “holding his side” as he ran, according to an officer’s report, possibly indicating that he had a firearm in his waistband.

A search of the path taken during the foot chase revealed a loaded handgun lying about 30 feet in front of the trio’s car, according to police. The gun had a defaced serial number.

At the police station, an assistant state’s attorney refused to file weapons charges because it was the weekend and fingerprints could not be ordered on the gun. The case has been set for “continuing investigation.”

In January, police said Fierro was seen with a loaded handgun in a car near Gage Park. Fierro, with his hands cuffed behind his back, allegedly ran from the scene, but did not get far before being tackled by police. He’s currently facing charges of Class X felony armed violence, eight felony firearms charges, and manufacture-delivery of cocaine in the case. He was released on an “affordable bail” and is due back in court on April 30. He previously served prison time twice for manufacture-delivery of cannabis, according to court records.

Gontarz was convicted in 2015 of carrying a loaded handgun in a shopping bag in the McKinley Park neighborhood. He was charged with eight felony weapons counts and pleaded guilty to one gun charge and guilty to escaping from electronic monitoring while awaiting trial. Since being released, he has twice been charged with having street gang contact while on parole and been charged with failure to register as a gun offender. All of those cases were thrown out.

In the lakefront incident, Fierro was charged with being on park district property after hours and released on a $120 cash bond. Gontarz was charged with being on park district property after hours and a new count of failure to register as a gun offender. He was also released on a $120 cash bond. The juvenile was charged with being on parkland after hours and obstructing identification. No further information is available about her case.

Gun Defendant AWOL

Aziz Muhammad, who was profiled in our February 1st gun report, has skipped out on his “affordable bail” and gone missing, according to court records. Muhammad, 28, is accused of having a 14-inch sawed-off shotgun in a gym bag in a car on the South Side in late January. Judge Stephanie Miller allowed him to go free on a recognizance bond.

Records show he failed to appear in court on Monday. An arrest warrant has been issued.
http://www.cwbchicago.com/2018/04/lakev ... n-for.html

These fuckers don't care, worst that happens is they spend a year in a local jail or prison with all their buddies, it's like summer camp for them.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
ed
Posts: 33059
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: Rhino of the Florida swamp
Has thanked: 440 times
Been thanked: 754 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by ed » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:36 pm

n.b. the feds were not involved though the fucker obviously was in violation of federal gun laws. That is on Trump/Rahm.
Wenn ich Kultur höre, entsichere ich meinen Browning!