Examples of self defense with a gun

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22240
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 381 times
Been thanked: 408 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by gnome » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:37 pm

I've rephrased the statement to accommodate your point:

"A gun's only purpose is to kill or threaten to kill."

Do you think anyone here disputes that?

Another statement:

"Sometimes killing (or threatening to) is justified in self-defense".

Do you think anyone here disputes that?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22240
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 381 times
Been thanked: 408 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by gnome » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:43 pm

It may be a bad argument to jump from the above to "nobody should have a gun".

But its validity does not rely on these stories.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8965
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 235 times
Been thanked: 144 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:18 pm

gnome wrote:I've rephrased the statement to accommodate your point:

"A gun's only purpose is to kill or threaten to kill."
OK, but now you are talking about a different claim than the claim refuted by this thread.

gnome wrote:"A gun's only purpose is to kill or threaten to kill."

Do you think anyone here disputes that?
Yes. Several people here, including me, dispute that. But this thread is not about those other purposes.

Let me clarify. The claim was made (on this forum and elsewhere) that a gun's only purpose is to kill. There were no qualifiers. The unstated implication is that a gun therefore has no legitimate or lawful purpose. Refuting that implication is the point of this thread.

gnome wrote:Another statement:

"Sometimes killing (or threatening to) is justified in self-defense".

Do you think anyone here disputes that?
Yes I do. And I know of people elsewhere who dispute that. That's why I started this thread.

See for example: http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-killi ... -justified

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22240
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 381 times
Been thanked: 408 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by gnome » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:34 pm

I am talking about a different claim, yes. I am proposing that the examples offered only prove a slightly different statement... That sometimes the threat is effective. Has anything else been shown?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 33648
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1760 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Grammatron » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:44 pm

gnome wrote:I am talking about a different claim, yes. I am proposing that the examples offered only prove a slightly different statement... That sometimes the threat is effective. Has anything else been shown?
The purpose of this thread is to counterbalance the narrative that often surfaces when there's a mass shooting: Guns are only murder tools let's ban them all. These anecdotes show that not only guns can be used to stop a mass-shooting but prevent it, and in some cases do so without firing a single bullet.

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 14100
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 34 times
Been thanked: 364 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by WildCat » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:31 pm

gnome wrote:I've rephrased the statement to accommodate your point:

"A gun's only purpose is to kill or threaten to kill."

Do you think anyone here disputes that?

Another statement:

"Sometimes killing (or threatening to) is justified in self-defense".

Do you think anyone here disputes that?
I have 15 guns, only 2 are for self defense. The rest are just for fun and/or collector purposes or hunting. Hell the ones for self defense are fun too!
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
ed
Posts: 33435
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: Rhino of the Florida swamp
Has thanked: 460 times
Been thanked: 788 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by ed » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:11 pm

WildCat wrote:
gnome wrote:I've rephrased the statement to accommodate your point:

"A gun's only purpose is to kill or threaten to kill."

Do you think anyone here disputes that?

Another statement:

"Sometimes killing (or threatening to) is justified in self-defense".

Do you think anyone here disputes that?
I have 15 guns, only 2 are for self defense. The rest are just for fun and/or collector purposes or hunting. Hell the ones for self defense are fun too!
15? I thought you were a gun guy. :x
Wenn ich Kultur höre, entsichere ich meinen Browning!

User avatar
ed
Posts: 33435
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: Rhino of the Florida swamp
Has thanked: 460 times
Been thanked: 788 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by ed » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:12 pm

gnome wrote:I've rephrased the statement to accommodate your point:

"A gun's only purpose is to kill or threaten to kill."

Do you think anyone here disputes that?
Simply and soundly refuted elsewhere.
Wenn ich Kultur höre, entsichere ich meinen Browning!

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22240
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 381 times
Been thanked: 408 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by gnome » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:27 pm

Grammatron wrote:
gnome wrote:I am talking about a different claim, yes. I am proposing that the examples offered only prove a slightly different statement... That sometimes the threat is effective. Has anything else been shown?
The purpose of this thread is to counterbalance the narrative that often surfaces when there's a mass shooting: Guns are only murder tools let's ban them all. These anecdotes show that not only guns can be used to stop a mass-shooting but prevent it, and in some cases do so without firing a single bullet.
That is contained in the "or threaten" part.

I feel like the counterbalance is off target. The focus has been on that you can do things besides kill, and the only additional thing the thread's examples so far have offered is "and threaten to." Wouldn't the correct focus be on the "and therefore nobody should have them" part, rather than so many examples dedicated to a minor variation on the premise?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22240
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 381 times
Been thanked: 408 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by gnome » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:27 pm

WildCat wrote:
gnome wrote:I've rephrased the statement to accommodate your point:

"A gun's only purpose is to kill or threaten to kill."

Do you think anyone here disputes that?

Another statement:

"Sometimes killing (or threatening to) is justified in self-defense".

Do you think anyone here disputes that?
I have 15 guns, only 2 are for self defense. The rest are just for fun and/or collector purposes or hunting. Hell the ones for self defense are fun too!
An excellent point--which none of these examples help to illustrate.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 33648
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1760 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Grammatron » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:39 pm

gnome wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
gnome wrote:I am talking about a different claim, yes. I am proposing that the examples offered only prove a slightly different statement... That sometimes the threat is effective. Has anything else been shown?
The purpose of this thread is to counterbalance the narrative that often surfaces when there's a mass shooting: Guns are only murder tools let's ban them all. These anecdotes show that not only guns can be used to stop a mass-shooting but prevent it, and in some cases do so without firing a single bullet.
That is contained in the "or threaten" part.

I feel like the counterbalance is off target.
How so?
The focus has been on that you can do things besides kill, and the only additional thing the thread's examples so far have offered is "and threaten to." Wouldn't the correct focus be on the "and therefore nobody should have them" part, rather than so many examples dedicated to a minor variation on the premise?
Why do you think the examples given are inadequate in countering "and therefore nobody should have them"? Seems to me that someone stopping a crime by simply possessing something "no one should have" is a direct way to disprove that extreme.

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 14100
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 34 times
Been thanked: 364 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by WildCat » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:09 pm

ed wrote:15? I thought you were a gun guy. :x
I'm working on it... you probably have 15 Mauser pistols alone.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 33648
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1760 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Grammatron » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:48 pm

I have 0 because I live in California and I am genuinely concerned that a legal gun I buy today might make me a felon tomorrow.

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22240
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 381 times
Been thanked: 408 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by gnome » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:12 am

Grammatron wrote:I have 0 because I live in California and I am genuinely concerned that a legal gun I buy today might make me a felon tomorrow.
I understand the concern that it would be a waste of an investment. Are you concerned that you would not be given an opportunity to satisfy the law?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 14100
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 34 times
Been thanked: 364 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by WildCat » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:37 am

gnome wrote:
Grammatron wrote:I have 0 because I live in California and I am genuinely concerned that a legal gun I buy today might make me a felon tomorrow.
I understand the concern that it would be a waste of an investment. Are you concerned that you would not be given an opportunity to satisfy the law?
Probably concerned the law would change and he'd miss the change.

The fuckers in Illinois tried to pass a law making it a felony to sell a gun, even to a close relative, without running a FOID check. This was previously something that had no penalty attached but granted civil immunity if you did it. I'd guess that 95% of Illinois gun owners had no idea this was in the works and wouldn't know if it did pass.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 33648
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1760 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Grammatron » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:33 am

WildCat wrote:
gnome wrote:
Grammatron wrote:I have 0 because I live in California and I am genuinely concerned that a legal gun I buy today might make me a felon tomorrow.
I understand the concern that it would be a waste of an investment. Are you concerned that you would not be given an opportunity to satisfy the law?
Probably concerned the law would change and he'd miss the change.

The fuckers in Illinois tried to pass a law making it a felony to sell a gun, even to a close relative, without running a FOID check. This was previously something that had no penalty attached but granted civil immunity if you did it. I'd guess that 95% of Illinois gun owners had no idea this was in the works and wouldn't know if it did pass.
Or trying to comply with the new law

https://www.nraila.org/articles/2018060 ... ster-rifle

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 67857
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 3469 times
Been thanked: 2196 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Doctor X » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:59 am

He failed to register a number of weapons as well as was found to have other illegal items.

So, I take my car to get inspected, they notice blood seeping from the trunk. . . .

"But I was complying!"

Yet another reason why the NRA does not "help." Between jerks, the author seems proud that about two hundred thousand gun owners do not register their guns.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X4!!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8965
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 235 times
Been thanked: 144 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:17 am

The US Supreme Court has ruled that any law requiring registration of guns does not apply to guns that are owned illegally. So what exactly is the point of registration other than to unnecessarily burden otherwise law-abiding citizens?

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 33648
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1760 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Grammatron » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:19 am

Doctor X wrote:He failed to register a number of weapons as well as was found to have other illegal items.

So, I take my car to get inspected, they notice blood seeping from the trunk. . . .

"But I was complying!"

Yet another reason why the NRA does not "help." Between jerks, the author seems proud that about two hundred thousand gun owners do not register their guns.

--J.D.
Yeah the link is a shit biased source but considering the subject matter it's the best one can do.

I also don't know if the guy did it on purpose to trigger an appeal process all the way up. But I don't need that kind of nonsense from the government in my life.

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8965
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 235 times
Been thanked: 144 times

Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:23 am

gnome wrote:I feel like the counterbalance is off target. The focus has been on that you can do things besides kill, and the only additional thing the thread's examples so far have offered is "and threaten to."
Let's not lose sight of the fact that saving lives is the ultimate purpose of using a gun to threaten (or kill) in self defense. The point of these examples is to show that one of the legitimate and lawful purposes of a gun is to prevent bad guys from injuring or killing their victims.