Examples of self defense with a gun

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:57 pm

Mentat wrote:The only one trolling here is you and xouper.


I see you still have nothing of value to add to the discussion.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:04 pm

Rob Lister wrote:Has this thread covered any ground since ...
http://skepticalcommunity.com/forums/vi ... 77&p=22593


I don't know. Has the topic of this thread (as explained in the opening post) been discussed at this level of detail before?

Consider also, that old thread was before Heller and McDonald.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby Mentat » Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:19 pm

I'll add something of value when somebody else does. But all I see are emotional knee jerk reactions and panicking at the thought there may be data out their they won't like. And so instead of accepting it, they come up with the most moronic reasons to poison the well.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:11 pm

Mentat wrote:. . . all I see are emotional knee jerk reactions and panicking at the thought there may be data out their they won't like. And so instead of accepting it, they come up with the most moronic reasons to poison the well.


You've described your own contributions in this thread rather accurately.

Well, done, Mentat.


Mentat wrote:I'll add something of value when somebody else does.


I've posted much of value in this thread, beginning with the opening post.

  • I've cited news reports of successful self defense with a gun.

  • I've quoted at length from a CDC report commissioned by President Obama.

  • I've quoted expert opinions on the matter of gun violence being a health issue.

  • When legitimate questions were asked, I've given detailed, informative, and sincere answers.

Yes, indeed, that all qualifies as something of value.




Your turn.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:30 pm

Getting back to the original purpose of this thread (while we're waiting for something of value from Mentat), here's another example of successful use of a gun for self defense:

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/02/two_detroit_residents_charged.html wrote:
Police say 11-year-old girl used her own shotgun to scare off robbers in Lapeer County

Roberto Acosta, on February 02, 2015

LAPEER COUNTY, MI -- An 11-year-old girl used the shotgun she normally keeps to go hunting with her father to scare off a robber in her home, police said.

The girl was alone at her North Branch Township home on Five Lakes Road about 3:45 p.m. on Jan. 30 when police said she surprised burglars who had broken into the house.

The girl hid in a bathroom closet, where she grabbed her shotgun that police said she stores in a gun safe.

When one of the burglars opened the closet door, police said the girl — whose parents were due home from work a short time later — pointed the shotgun at him and he ran off.

"The 12-gauge shotgun is her weapon," said Lapeer County Sheriff Detective Sgt. Jason Parks. "She and her father are into hunting and avid sportsmen. She was familiar with that weapon."

Parks praised the girl's responsibility, poise and composure.

"She is fully capable of staying there by herself as we can clearly see based on this situation," he said. "She was able to defend herself from an intruder and be able to resolve an event even most adults would be taken aback by."

Added Parks, "She is fully capable of making sound, good decisions," he said. "And be a protector of her home." ...


No shots fired. No one got killed.

Did the girl save her own life? We can't know for certain, but we do know that there have been other similar cases where the girl was killed. So it may very well be that this is a case of a gun saving a life instead of taking one.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:45 pm

The following news report seems to be weak on details, but if the central facts are correct, this is another example of successful use of a gun for self defense.

http://fox6now.com/2018/02/26/didnt-have-to-die-officials-hope-deadly-shooting-of-would-be-carjacker-is-a-wake-up-call/
wrote:

Officials hope deadly shooting of would-be carjacker is a wake-up call

February 26, 2018, by Aaron Maybin

MILWAUKEE -- A carjacking suspect was shot and killed by his would-be victim early Monday, Feb. 26 near 91st and Fond du Lac in Milwaukee, and we've learned the alleged carjacker also had a gun.

. . . Many who work in the area said carjackers frequent businesses looking for vehicles to steal, and many workers are concealed carry permit holders. The shooter in this case has a permit.

. . . [MPD Captain Andra Williams] said carjackings and vehicle thefts have gotten out of hand and this incident should serve as a warning.


Sometimes the bad guy gets killed. The FBI has a category for this called "justifiable homicide".

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby Mentat » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:48 pm

Still waiting to hear about that value.
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:04 am

Mentat wrote:Still waiting to hear about that value.


You said you would "add something of value when somebody else does."

Apparently you lied.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby Mentat » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:06 am

Still waiting to hear something of value.
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:07 am

Apparently Mentat does not think these examples have any value. Ergo, I predict he will claim there is no value in the following example either.

He would be wrong. Again.

Sometimes things don't go well. (Yellow highlighting added by me.)

https://lasvegassun.com/news/2014/jun/05/police-homeowner-shoots-man-knocking-wrong-door/ wrote:
Homeowner shoots man knocking on wrong door

By Ana Ley, June 5, 2014

A man who accidentally banged on the door of a stranger’s house early this morning was shot by the homeowner, Metro Police said.

The victim had been at a birthday party at a nearby house in the 9200 block of Wittig Avenue, near Fort Apache and Elkhorn roads, Metro Lt. Ted Glaude said. He and a friend left briefly, and when they tried returning about 2 a.m., they confused the two houses and knocked on the wrong door, police said.

Officer Laura Meltzer said the homeowner called police, believing the men to be burglars, and fired a single round.

. . . Paramedics took the injured man to University Medical Center, where he was being treated for injuries not considered life threatening, officials said.

. . . No arrests had been made as of 11 a.m., and no other details were immediately available.


This tragic example demonstrates that not all defensive uses of a gun end well. Sadly, it is not an isolated example, albeit still rare. In hindsight, the homeowner was premature is assessing there was a threat to his safety. I don't have a good answer for that. I do know, however, that taking away everyone's guns is not the answer.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby Mentat » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:11 am

Still yet to hear a single address on how anything that puts people in hospitals and morgues doesn't count as a health issue worth studying.
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:30 am

Mentat wrote:Still yet to hear a single address on how anything that puts people in hospitals and morgues doesn't count as a health issue worth studying.


Already been asked and answered.

I refer you back to the post I made which contains quotes from a physician and a lawyer who address that question.

viewtopic.php?p=910154#p910154

To clarify, no one has claimed the issue is not worth studying. The debate is whether it is a public health issue or a public policy issue.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby Mentat » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:33 am

I guess I'll never hear anything of value then. Thanks for playing.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:51 am

Mentat wrote:I guess I'll never hear anything of value then. Thanks for playing.


Image

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby WildCat » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:54 am

xouper wrote:I win.

Well it was hardly a fair fight.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby ed » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:54 am

re. reported use of firearms for self defense.

Frankly, I would be surprised if any but a small minority would report use of a firearm in self defense. Even if shots aren't fired, "brandishing" is an offence and a zealous DA could easily prosecute.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby sparks » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:45 am

And why not report the use in self defense? Is it not your Constitutional Right(r) to do so?

Oh noes, if one is truly defending his home/family/shit, then surely the DA will be understanding about the altercation...

And shit.


Seems like a built in problem there ed. You might want to refine your last post.

It is either legal to defend etc. or it is not. You're implying that people don't report self defense...because they might not be sure what that is exactly and are afraid of prosecution. :De_Bunk:

Responsible gun owners.

Indeed.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby Giz » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:37 am

sparks wrote:And why not report the use in self defense? Is it not your Constitutional Right(r) to do so?

Oh noes, if one is truly defending his home/family/shit, then surely the DA will be understanding about the altercation...

And shit.


Seems like a built in problem there ed. You might want to refine your last post.

It is either legal to defend etc. or it is not. You're implying that people don't report self defense...because they might not be sure what that is exactly and are afraid of prosecution. :De_Bunk:

Responsible gun owners.

Indeed.


Right, because no DA ever brought a bogus case for political advantage. Who are you, Mike Nifong?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:47 am

sparks wrote:It is either legal to defend etc. or it is not.


It's not always that simple.

See for example this discussion of that very question with Steven Levine, an expert in California state criminal law and who was a Los Angeles County district attorney for 13 years.

https://samharris.org/self-defense-and-the-law/

Sam Harris: One sometimes hears horror stories about people who engaged in seemingly necessary acts of self-defense and yet were zealously prosecuted and landed in prison. What is the worst that can happen?

Steven Levine: The worst that can happen is that you go to prison for the rest of your life, especially if you kill somebody. In California, even if you have a valid self-defense claim, the DA’s office will typically still file charges on you. I recently had a client, a 50-year-old nurse, who was in her own home when her ex-boyfriend (for 26 years) came over. He’d moved out 7 months earlier. There was a small history of domestic violence. But in fact, he had recently assaulted their 22-year-old daughter by head-butting her. While they were discussing things downstairs in the living room, he picked up a sledgehammer. She grew worried, told him to leave, and retreated upstairs. He put down the hammer but followed her upstairs and told her he did not have to leave. Once upstairs, he was yelling at her. Finally, she grabbed her gun. She’s a cancer survivor. She’s had a double mastectomy. She’s half his size, and she told him to leave. He went for the gun, and she shot him. The bullet went through his rib cage and he died. She tried to save him by doing CPR.

The jury convicted her of murder despite the fact that she said that she was scared for her life. Again, the general principle is correct as far as the law is concerned: You can defend yourself as long as you’re scared of great bodily injury—and that’s not such a high standard. Great bodily injury could be pretty much anything.


But because she suffered no bodily injury at all, the jury decided she was not entitled to claim self defense.

The situation in Kansas is even worse. According to state law in Kansas, if you pull out a gun in self defense, but do not shoot it, then you are not entitled to claim self defense. For further discussion of that, see:

http://volokh.com/2009/10/23/defending-yourself-against-attack-by-threatening-force-is-a-crime-in-kansas/ wrote:
Defending Yourself Against Attack by Threatening Force Is a Crime in Kansas
By Eugene Volokh on October 23, 2009

That’s what the Kansas Supreme Court just held, interpreting Kansas Stats. § 21-3211. The statute reads,

(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent it appears to such person and such person reasonably believes that such force is necessary to defend such person or a third person against such other’s imminent use of unlawful force.

(b) A person is justified in the use of deadly force under circumstances described in subsection (a) if such person reasonably believes deadly force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to such person or a third person.

(c) Nothing in this section shall require a person to retreat if such person is using force to protect such person or a third person.

And the court concluded that while this allows self-defense that involves an actual attack on the attacker — for instance, hitting, shooting, or stabbing the attacker — it does not allow self-defense that merely involves a threat of violence against the attacker.


See also:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/eugene-volokh/if-you-brandish-a-gun-in_b_460850.html wrote:
If You Brandish a Gun in Self-Defense in Kansas, You’d Best Shoot It
By Eugene Volokh, April 14, 2010 updated May 25, 2011

From State v. Flint, 2010 WL 445934 (Kan. App. Jan. 29):

[A]fter leaving a bar in Emporia where [Brandon] Flint’s fiancee and another man exchanged angry words, Flint walked to his car. Outside, Flint’s fiancee and two men continued to talk in a heated fashion. Flint’s fiancee fell to the ground during the scuffle. At this point, Flint got his gun, walked back across the street, and pointed the gun at the chest of one of the men; both men immediately backed away. Flint’s fiancee got up, she and Flint walked back to Flint’s car, and they drove away.

The State charged Flint with aggravated assault, and the jury convicted him. Flint requested an instruction for defense of another under K.S.A. 21-3211(a), but the district court denied his request, ruling Flint’s use of force was greater than reasonably necessary to resist the attack.

. . . A majority of the Supreme Court held in [State v. Hendrix, 289 Kan. 859 (2009),] that K.S.A. 21-3211 created a defense of self or defense of another only when there is “use of force.” The majority decided actual physical contact rather than a mere threat or display of force is necessary to raise this defense. Since Flint merely threatened the use of his gun and there was no actual force applied, he was not entitled to the defense of another.


Wow. Had Flint actually shot the gun, he would presumably have been entitled to have the jury consider his defense-of-others defense. (Such a defense would generally be roughly similar to a self-defense defense, and use of deadly force is generally allowed in self-defense against sufficiently serious threats.) But because Flint merely brandished the gun, he’s a felon — even if he reasonably believed that brandishing the gun was necessary to save his fiancee’s life. That is simply absurd.


I don't know what the situation is in most states. Do you?

In other words, Ed has a reasonable point in suggesting that some people might decide it is not worth the risk to report a self defense use of a gun when no force was ever used.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby Doctor X » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:42 am

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