Necessary charactaristics of a law

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Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby ed » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:41 pm

I throw this out for comments.

Here is what the nature of new laws should be IMO.

1- There must be a problem/issue that is amenable to a legal solution
2- The law must specifically address the identified problem
3- the must be a sunset provision for all laws
4- There must be a set of specific objective measures of the impact of the law
5- There must be an objective action standard as a definition for success of the law
6- If the law does not meet the action standard it should be allowed to expire.
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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby gnome » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:37 pm

Not bad in concept. I don't know whether #4 is feasible for literally all laws. Are there laws where the impact is difficult to measure objectively, but are clearly needed? I'm not confident of the answer to that question.

On #6, even if a law does not meet a standard of success, the expiration should be based on comparing the results to its absence, not to its desired goal.

For example, let's say you have a law designed to reduce forest fires. The target for success is (making this up) 100 fewer fires per year. The next year you get 50 fewer. Time to abandon the law? I don't think so. Maybe it means the law isn't helping at all. But maybe it's still better than no law. Or maybe it's working just fine and the goal is unrealistic.
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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:14 pm

Now now ed.

"Rule of Law" is a racist dog whistle.

OK you didn't use that exact expression, but you were thinking it. :evil:
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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby ed » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:35 am

You are niggardly with your praise.
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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby ed » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:47 am

gnome wrote:Not bad in concept. I don't know whether #4 is feasible for literally all laws. Are there laws where the impact is difficult to measure objectively, but are clearly needed? I'm not confident of the answer to that question.


"We need a law, we are not sure what it should do or if it is doing it but we need it anyway"

This is exactly the sort of law that should not be passd

On #6, even if a law does not meet a standard of success, the expiration should be based on comparing the results to its absence, not to its desired goal.

For example, let's say you have a law designed to reduce forest fires. The target for success is (making this up) 100 fewer fires per year. The next year you get 50 fewer. Time to abandon the law? I don't think so. Maybe it means the law isn't helping at all. But maybe it's still better than no law. Or maybe it's working just fine and the goal is unrealistic.


Seems if you can't determine what "working" is, you ought not to pass something.

If the law had zero impact on peoples day to day life and reduced fires by 50 then that should have been the standard. What not having a standard met means is that the damn thing was passed willy nilly without enough time spent to figure out the ramifications. Perhaps if you were less worried about getting reelected and were more worried about your job this wouldn't happen you incompetent fuck. Now get to work :x :x :x :x
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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby ed » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:49 am

kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
Last edited by ed on Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby ed » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:51 am

gnome wrote:Not bad in concept. I don't know whether #4 is feasible for literally all laws. Are there laws where the impact is difficult to measure objectively, but are clearly needed? I'm not confident of the answer to that question.


"We need a law, we are not sure what it should do or if it is doing it but we need it anyway"

This is exactly the sort of law that should not be passd

On #6, even if a law does not meet a standard of success, the expiration should be based on comparing the results to its absence, not to its desired goal.

For example, let's say you have a law designed to reduce forest fires. The target for success is (making this up) 100 fewer fires per year. The next year you get 50 fewer. Time to abandon the law? I don't think so. Maybe it means the law isn't helping at all. But maybe it's still better than no law. Or maybe it's working just fine and the goal is unrealistic.


Seems if you can't determine what "working" is, you ought not to pass something.

If the law had zero impact on peoples day to day life and reduced fires by 50 then that should have been the standard. What not having a standard met means is that the damn thing was passed willy nilly without enough time spent to figure out the ramifications. Perhaps if you were less worried about getting reelected and were more worried about your job this wouldn't happen you incompetent fuck. Now get to work :x :x :x :x
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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby gnome » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:22 am

Let's test it. I'll propose a law that I think is clearly useful, and you suggest how it can be objectively measured whether it's working, or convince me it's not needed.

First try:

A county law stating that all meetings by county officials concerning public business must keep a record that is freely available.
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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby Grammatron » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:27 am

What about sensitive information (banking information, passwords, etc.) that may be shared during those meetings, does it go on record as well?

Freely available: In what form?
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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby Doctor X » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:18 am

Grammatron wrote:Freely available: In what form?


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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby gnome » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:53 am

Grammatron wrote:What about sensitive information (banking information, passwords, etc.) that may be shared during those meetings, does it go on record as well?

Freely available: In what form?


An audio or video log, or transcript, or even at least meeting minutes, that you pick up a copy of from the county clerk.
I'm fine with whatever details are needed for practicality and to preserve confidentiality. My point is the measurability of the goal.
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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby ed » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:56 pm

gnome wrote:
Grammatron wrote:What about sensitive information (banking information, passwords, etc.) that may be shared during those meetings, does it go on record as well?

Freely available: In what form?


An audio or video log, or transcript, or even at least meeting minutes, that you pick up a copy of from the county clerk.
I'm fine with whatever details are needed for practicality and to preserve confidentiality. My point is the measurability of the goal.


I refer you to #1. Is there a problem that must be addressed or is this something that "might happen so we have to be ready"?
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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby gnome » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:15 pm

I think it's important that voters have disclosure of the actions their elected officials take. If a county didn't have such a requirement I would consider that a problem needing addressing. So: how do you measure the benefit objectively?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby ed » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:45 pm

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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby gnome » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:19 pm

You lost me, can you elaborate?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby ed » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:19 pm

That was a joke.

I think that some laws have self evident benefit. Some less so. A rule that declares that all business be conducted with public oversight is sorta trivial to measure. It is or it isn't, no?
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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby gnome » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:27 pm

Don't confuse the functioning with the results.

That to me sounds like a law justifying licenses for firearms is proven to be effective because we can demonstrate that the licenses were issued. I'm sure that wasn't the spirit of your principles above.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby Grammatron » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:42 pm

ed wrote:That was a joke.

I think that some laws have self evident benefit. Some less so. A rule that declares that all business be conducted with public oversight is sorta trivial to measure. It is or it isn't, no?


It's also not a guarantee that it does anything. All the Chicago cronyism and failures are out in the open, yet nothing changes.
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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby gnome » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:01 pm

But would you say that the failure to solve that problem means that laws requiring transparency should be automatically repealed?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Necessary charactaristics of a law

Postby Captain » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:16 pm

7. It's for your own good.
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