Israel

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Anaxagoras
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Israel

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue May 15, 2018 3:44 am

Looks like things are heating up again. I blame Trump. :notsure:

World slams disproportionate force in Gaza as IDF kills dozens of Gazans (The Jerusalem Post)
After more than 50 Palestinians were killed in the day's protest, South Africa and Turkey recalled their ambassadors to Israel.

The international community urged Israel to stop shooting Palestinian protesters on the Gaza border, with South Africa and Turkey recalling their ambassadors in protest, after a day of violent riots left 58 Palestinians dead on Monday.
58 dead seems like more than a typical day over there.
“The South African government condemns in the strongest terms possible the latest act of violent aggression carried out by Israeli armed forces along the Gaza border,” the South African government said. “Given the indiscriminate and grave manner of the latest Israeli attack, the South African government has taken a decision to recall Ambassador Sisa Ngombane with immediate effect until further notice,” it added.

Turkey’s Foreign Ministry minced no words and called Israeli actions on the Gaza border “a massacre,” and the country's President, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, labelled it a "genocide." At a speed in London he said his country had recalled its ambassadors to both the US and Israel, according to the Turkish web site the Daily Sabeh.

The United Nations Security Council plans to hold an emergency meeting on Gaza in New York on Tuesday, with the US appearing to have quashed calls for an investigation into the [sic]

The IDF did its best to make its case that the Hamas-led protests, known as the Great March of Return, were not peaceful demonstrations but violent riots designed to break through the border fence and kidnap soldiers.

But Israel’s allies in Europe, who earlier in the week spoke of Israel’s right to defend itself against Iran, called for restraint after Monday turned out to be the bloodiest day of protests since the Great March began on March 30.

The number of casualties was reported by the Hamas-led Ministry of Health in Gaza and there was no independent corroboration.

The German Foreign Office and the French Foreign Ministry expressed concern that Israeli actions in Gaza amounted to a disproportional use of force.

“Israel has the right to defend itself and to secure the fence against violent incursion. However, the principle of proportionality applies. That includes only using live ammunition when other, less forceful methods of deterrence do not work and in cases of concrete threats,” the German Foreign Office said.

At the same time, it also urged Hamas not to exploit the protest for violent ends.

“The right to peaceful protest must also apply in Gaza. At the same time, we have always made clear that this right must not be abused, taken as a pretext or exploited in order to escalate the situation, deploy violence or incite others to do so,” the German Foreign Office said.

“Those who wield power in the Gaza Strip must renounce violence and the Palestinian Authority must once again be in control in Gaza,” it added.

French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian called for restraint on both sides, but unlike Germany did not make any statement against Hamas.
Personally I doubt the IDF would "indiscriminately" kill peaceful protesters.

Meanwhile Jared and Ivanka are there to celebrate the opening of the new US embassy in Jerusalem.
The Daily Fail reports:

'Big day in Israel. Congratulations!' Trump tweets jubilantly at official opening by Jared and Ivanka of U.S. embassy in Jerusalem - as bloody day of violence sees Israeli snipers kill 52 and injure 2,400 (Lots more photos juxtaposed here)

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Re: Israel

Post by Giz » Tue May 15, 2018 5:10 am

I’d like to see the French and German politicians guard that border when the mob attacks and show us how it should be done. Calls for restraint will do the trick I’m sure.

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Re: Israel

Post by Doctor X » Tue May 15, 2018 7:02 am

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Re: Israel

Post by Grammatron » Tue May 15, 2018 7:56 am


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Re: Israel

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue May 15, 2018 8:24 am

More coverage of the situation here:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaz ... -1.6091978

Sort of an updating "live blog" deal. Death toll is now reported to be up to 60 (but I don't know if that has been independently verified; last I heard it was not, but most of the media reports seem to take those figures at face value). There will be funerals for these people, which are expected to further stoke tensions.

My personal opinion: it wasn't necessary to move the embassy. It's a symbolic gesture that nonetheless increases the conflict needlessly. I'm sure it costs the taxpayer money too. Obviously I don't support Hamas either, but the Palestinian problem cannot be wished away. They are there. They will continue to be there. And they believe it's their country which has been stolen from them whether that belief is reasonable or not.
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Re: Israel

Post by Pyrrho » Tue May 15, 2018 8:58 am

I'm sure this new embassy is totally secure against spying...
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Re: Israel

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue May 15, 2018 9:20 am

Pyrrho wrote:I'm sure this new embassy is totally secure against spying...
Just like the previous one? :BigGrin3:
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Re: Israel

Post by WildCat » Tue May 15, 2018 12:06 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:My personal opinion: it wasn't necessary to move the embassy. It's a symbolic gesture that nonetheless increases the conflict needlessly.
I think it is necessary. The more the world coddles the Palestinians and their genocidal agenda the more emboldened they become. And don't doubt for a minute that most of the support they receive is from latent anti-Semitism that didn't vanish from Europe in 1945.
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Re: Israel

Post by ed » Tue May 15, 2018 12:15 pm

WildCat wrote: latent anti-Semitism that didn't vanish from Europe in 1945.
Are you on drugs? latent?

The Palestinian leadership is absolutely complicit in the deaths of those poor bastards. Whose Idea was it to attack the Israelis?
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Re: Israel

Post by shuize » Tue May 15, 2018 2:18 pm

WildCat wrote:I think it is necessary. The more the world coddles the Palestinians and their genocidal agenda the more emboldened they become. And don't doubt for a minute that most of the support they receive is from latent anti-Semitism that didn't vanish from Europe in 1945.
Agreed. The Palestinians need to learn they can either join in a peaceful settlement or get left behind.

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Re: Israel

Post by Giz » Tue May 15, 2018 3:02 pm

Their behavior needs to have consequences. But even the USA subsidizes them.

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Re: Israel

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue May 15, 2018 11:33 pm

About that embassy ...

Full disclosure: IMO on the face of it, the embassy should be in the capital (which it has been since 1967), but ...
Jerusalem embassy to be opened by 'religious bigot,' Romney says (MSN)
...

"Robert Jeffress says, 'You can't be saved by being a Jew,' and 'Mormonism is a heresy from the pit of Hell,'" Romney wrote in a tweet. "He's said the same about Islam. Such a religious bigot should not be giving the prayer that opens the United States Embassy in Jerusalem."

...
I
Why is anybody officially opening the United States Embassy in Jerusalem with prayer?

Never mind whether it's a Baptist bigot or a squishy soft Unitarian minister. Or a rabbi.

II
Although religious Jews do believe in ultimate redemption from sin by way of a Messiah, the whole "being saved" thing as understood by Christians is rejected.

So the remark about Jews should be uncontroversial.

III
Religious Jews, Mormons, and myself all agree about one thing theological. That Hell does not exist.

So of course we are going there as punishment for that if nothing else. :propeller:
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Re: Israel

Post by WildCat » Wed May 16, 2018 4:50 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:About that embassy ...
Romney is such a stupid tool. Isn't it the Mormons who baptize Jews after they die to "save" them?

Holy fuck he's an idiot.
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Re: Israel

Post by Doctor X » Wed May 16, 2018 5:01 am

It remains a mind-boggingly stupid choice.

It is as if there was no way someone could search for things. . . .

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Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
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Re: Israel

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed May 16, 2018 5:34 am

These are the people who believe that the Jews need to return to Israel to fulfill some biblical prophecy so that the end-times can begin.
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Re: Israel

Post by Doctor X » Wed May 16, 2018 6:04 am

Yeah, rebuilding the Temple and all of that. The is a still good, but old given what has happened since including Tim McVey, study on such movements: Apocalypse Pretty Soon: Travels in End-Time America. One chapter is devoted to Fundamentalist Christian groups working with So Ultra-Orthodox They Enjoy Leviticus Groups that want to re-start priests and even, eventually, sacrifices to . . . *Puff of Blue Smoke* . . . allow for the battle at Megiddo.

We are not dealing with critical thinking, here.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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Re: Israel

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed May 16, 2018 8:58 am

Anaxagoras wrote:These are the people who believe that the Jews need to return to Israel to fulfill some biblical prophecy so that the end-times can begin.
Not shared by most Israelis.
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Re: Israel

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed May 16, 2018 10:15 am

I should hope not!
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Re: Israel

Post by WildCat » Wed May 16, 2018 11:57 am

The ultra-orthodox in Israel have far more political influence than their numbers would suggest because of the parliamentary system.
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Re: Israel

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed May 16, 2018 2:39 pm

WildCat wrote:The ultra-orthodox in Israel have far more political influence than their numbers would suggest because of the parliamentary system.
This is quite true, modulo that "ultra" only means they dress funny, whereas "modern" Orthodox means they almost dress like Gentiles while holding similar views on issues other than what to wear.

But they don't normally hold to the view that the Jewish State fulfills Messianic prophesy.
Only that it's good for the Jews.

The "Third Temple" crazies (also Orthodox) do not have political power.
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