Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:38 am

You should totally go Ed, and report back.

Maybe you can even drum up some business, but if not at least it's something for your bucket list.
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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by gnome » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:51 am

xouper wrote:
gnome wrote:My point is that the discussion should center around what that action is and its effects and consequences compared to alternatives, not around whether the offenders can "Just not do that". If people are there with me then I can let it drop.
Perhaps the two points of discussion are not mutually exclusive? :P
They are indeed not mutually exclusive because one is completely irrelevant to the justification.

They can "just not do that" no matter what the action is, so that point of discussion adds no value to the question.
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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by gnome » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:57 am

A different case for evaluation (that I'll admit I am not sure how strong it is): that the refugee crisis has its roots not in past but current and longstanding US policy: the "war on drugs". That areas that have legalized have seen sharp declines in violence and gang activity that impacts neighboring areas as well, and that such a policy would even reduce the violence driving refugees from Central America.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by xouper » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:36 pm

gnome wrote:They can "just not do that" no matter what the action is, so that point of discussion adds no value to the question.
I disagree.

There is a very compelling point to be made.

It reminds us — for those who tend to lose focus on that point — who is ultimately to blame for choosing a course of action that leads to consequences they don't like.

Analogy: David Hogg likes to blame the NRA for the shootings at his high school in Parkland, Florida. He tends to ignore that the blame ultimately rests with the bad guy who did the shooting, not the NRA. The NRA is not to blame when someone uses a gun illegally.

Likewise with those who choose to cross the border illegally. Law enforcement agencies are not to blame for that choice. Let's not lose sight of where the blame lies, which is something the mainstream media almost never talks about.


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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:45 pm

About open borders:

1) Capital could always cross borders easier than labor, no matter what the law says.
2) And now that means at the push of a button.

Conclusion: The libertarian case for open borders is disproven by the laws of physics.

However they do make a good point that it is entirely incompatible with a welfare state.
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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by WildCat » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:17 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:Central America was different. Other than Cuba, the commies never really won in the countries that are the biggest problems now with gangs:
I'd argue that the actual problem is deep-rooted systemic government corruption. Gangs are a symptom of that corruption.
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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by WildCat » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:24 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:About open borders:

1) Capital could always cross borders easier than labor, no matter what the law says.
2) And now that means at the push of a button.

Conclusion: The libertarian case for open borders is disproven by the laws of physics.

However they do make a good point that it is entirely incompatible with a welfare state.
Besides the welfare state which didn't exist in the immigration boom of the early 20th century there are other factors. It's much, much cheaper to travel to the USA from other continents now. And the internet (Skype etc.) has made keeping in touch with the old country much easier and virtually free. Back then you were making a huge committment when you emigrated to the USA, you likely never saw the family and friends you left behind ever again. Today it's really not much different than moving a few hundred miles down the road.
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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by WildCat » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:19 pm

Hey gnome, are you still clinging to the notion that Democrats aren't advocating open borders and non-enforcement of any and all immigration laws?


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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:37 pm

WildCat wrote:Hey gnome, are you still clinging to the notion that Democrats aren't advocating open borders and non-enforcement of any and all immigration laws?



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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by WildCat » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:42 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
WildCat wrote:Hey gnome, are you still clinging to the notion that Democrats aren't advocating open borders and non-enforcement of any and all immigration laws?



The problem is Democrats want to make imagination reality. And the reality of open borders is the elimination of sovereignty, the end of the rule of law, and anarchy until the warlords take over.
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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by ed » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:47 pm

Someone has to pay. That is the fact that democrats forget.
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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by Giz » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:21 am

ed wrote:Someone has to pay. That is the fact that democrats forget.
They just think there will always be someone else to pay.

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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by gnome » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:48 am

xouper wrote:
gnome wrote:They can "just not do that" no matter what the action is, so that point of discussion adds no value to the question.
I disagree.

There is a very compelling point to be made.

It reminds us — for those who tend to lose focus on that point — who is ultimately to blame for choosing a course of action that leads to consequences they don't like.

Analogy: David Hogg likes to blame the NRA for the shootings at his high school in Parkland, Florida. He tends to ignore that the blame ultimately rests with the bad guy who did the shooting, not the NRA. The NRA is not to blame when someone uses a gun illegally.

Likewise with those who choose to cross the border illegally. Law enforcement agencies are not to blame for that choice. Let's not lose sight of where the blame lies, which is something the mainstream media almost never talks about.


Image
All of that is accurate, but again does not speak at all to the appropriateness of the consequence besides the rather vacuous point that it is a crime.

One would expect EVERY crime, the criminal is responsible for breaking the law. Is that at all useful for evaluating the choice of penalty or process of justice?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by gnome » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:50 am

WildCat wrote:Hey gnome, are you still clinging to the notion that Democrats aren't advocating open borders and non-enforcement of any and all immigration laws?


"Democrats" with no qualifier can mean some (for which you only need one or more examples for proof), many, most, or all. It also doesn't speak to whether you're talking about voters or elected officials.

So "Democrats advocate for open borders" is true or false depending on what context you apply to the term. The obvious fact that some advocate so does not require me to accept it a generalization.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by xouper » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:03 pm

gnome wrote:
xouper wrote:
gnome wrote:They can "just not do that" no matter what the action is, so that point of discussion adds no value to the question.
I disagree.

There is a very compelling point to be made.

It reminds us — for those who tend to lose focus on that point — who is ultimately to blame for choosing a course of action that leads to consequences they don't like.

Analogy: David Hogg likes to blame the NRA for the shootings at his high school in Parkland, Florida. He tends to ignore that the blame ultimately rests with the bad guy who did the shooting, not the NRA. The NRA is not to blame when someone uses a gun illegally.

Likewise with those who choose to cross the border illegally. Law enforcement agencies are not to blame for that choice. Let's not lose sight of where the blame lies, which is something the mainstream media almost never talks about.
All of that is accurate, but again does not speak at all to the appropriateness of the consequence besides the rather vacuous point that it is a crime. One would expect EVERY crime, the criminal is responsible for breaking the law. Is that at all useful for evaluating the choice of penalty or process of justice?
It wasn't intended to speak to the appropriateness of the consequences, nor was it intended to help evaluate the choice of penalty or process of justice.

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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by WildCat » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:10 pm

gnome wrote:"Democrats" with no qualifier can mean some (for which you only need one or more examples for proof), many, most, or all. It also doesn't speak to whether you're talking about voters or elected officials.

So "Democrats advocate for open borders" is true or false depending on what context you apply to the term. The obvious fact that some advocate so does not require me to accept it a generalization.
He's not just any Democrat, he was a front runner to lead the party. Other Democrats, including 2020 Presidential hopeful Kamala Harris, are calling for the abolition of ICE. Do you have any evidence at all that there is even one prominent Democrat who supports enforcing the immigration laws? How much evidence do you need before you conclude that the Democratic Party opposes enforcement of immigration laws?
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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by Giz » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:13 pm

WildCat wrote:
gnome wrote:"Democrats" with no qualifier can mean some (for which you only need one or more examples for proof), many, most, or all. It also doesn't speak to whether you're talking about voters or elected officials.

So "Democrats advocate for open borders" is true or false depending on what context you apply to the term. The obvious fact that some advocate so does not require me to accept it a generalization.
He's not just any Democrat, he was a front runner to lead the party. Other Democrats, including 2020 Presidential hopeful Kamala Harris, are calling for the abolition of ICE. Do you have any evidence at all that there is even one prominent Democrat who supports enforcing the immigration laws? How much evidence do you need before you conclude that the Democratic Party opposes enforcement of immigration laws?
They tried to ride the far-left populist tiger and now they can't dismount without being eaten (or having a primary challenge from the left).

At this point, trump is the sane middle ground.
(It felt weird typing that).

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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by Nyarlathotep » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:44 pm

Giz wrote:
WildCat wrote:
gnome wrote:"Democrats" with no qualifier can mean some (for which you only need one or more examples for proof), many, most, or all. It also doesn't speak to whether you're talking about voters or elected officials.

So "Democrats advocate for open borders" is true or false depending on what context you apply to the term. The obvious fact that some advocate so does not require me to accept it a generalization.
He's not just any Democrat, he was a front runner to lead the party. Other Democrats, including 2020 Presidential hopeful Kamala Harris, are calling for the abolition of ICE. Do you have any evidence at all that there is even one prominent Democrat who supports enforcing the immigration laws? How much evidence do you need before you conclude that the Democratic Party opposes enforcement of immigration laws?
They tried to ride the far-left populist tiger and now they can't dismount without being eaten (or having a primary challenge from the left).

At this point, trump is the sane middle ground.
(It felt weird typing that).
Like I was saying to AA a day or two ago, our political system is not built on "winning people over" it's based on getting more of the people who are already on your side to come out and vote than the other guys. Playing to your "base". Which has the side effect of requiring both parties to cater to the fringier elements of their party, not so much the middle. This also means that what was once fringe for the parties becomes mainstream and the fringe gets more out there too. And then that level of fringiness becomes mainstream and the cycle continues.

And here we are.
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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:48 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:Like I was saying to AA a day or two ago, our political system is not built on "winning people over" it's based on getting more of the people who are already on your side to come out and vote than the other guys. Playing to your "base". Which has the side effect of requiring both parties to cater to the fringier elements of their party, not so much the middle. This also means that what was once fringe for the parties becomes mainstream and the fringe gets more out there too. And then that level of fringiness becomes mainstream and the cycle continues.

And here we are.
If it's big city politics, it's always had a large component of cheating and bullying.

If ever there were a missed point, this is it.
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Re: Remember the FEMA camps conspiracy theories?

Post by Nyarlathotep » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:54 pm

What point did I miss?
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