Space Force

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Abdul Alhazred
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Re: Space Force

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:27 pm

Pyrrho wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
gnome wrote:Odds of current president paying any attention to "international agreement" hippie crap?
The USA won't be the first to claim and defend lunar real estate as sovereign territory.

That will be whichever country is the first to set up a permanent base and exploit natural resources.

China or perhaps India.
Delivery of those natural resources in sufficient bulk for a decent ROI gonna be a bit tricky ...
The first use of such resources would be for expanding the base without building materials shipped from Earth.
With or without union labor?
:lmao:
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Re: Space Force

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:20 pm

Did trump really use the words "separate but equal" to describe this thing? :lol:
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: Space Force

Post by sparks » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:25 pm

Methinks we really ought to go back to space before we pull a Space Force out of our ass like Teh Cheeto just did. Yes, yes, I read Robs argument about it protecting shit in orbit.

Already being done.

If we ever make it back to the Moon and establish a base there, then and only then will we need Colonial Marines. And that's never going to happen for all the readily apparent reasons.

So, end of Spaz Farce Mr. Dipshit President.
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Re: Space Force

Post by Rob Lister » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:29 pm

sparks wrote:I read Robs argument about it protecting shit in orbit.
Not from me you didn't.

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Re: Space Force

Post by sparks » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:31 pm

Rob Lister wrote:
sparks wrote:I read Robs argument about it protecting shit in orbit.
Not from me you didn't.
Bloody nit picker!
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Re: Space Force

Post by Witness » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:35 pm

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Re: Space Force

Post by Grammatron » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:38 pm

lol star citizen
pillory wrote:jokes aren't funny....seriously thinking......

seriously thinking might be funny....but it's not joke

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Re: Space Force

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:47 pm

A fifth branch of the military is going to be expensive in the long run. If it truly is a "separate but equal" branch with its own officers and enlisted members and so on.
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Re: Space Force

Post by Nyarlathotep » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:50 pm

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Re: Space Force

Post by WildCat » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:49 am

sparks wrote:Been there, tried that. And it's name was Ronnie. SDI indeed.
No, SDI was an ABM system, the Patriot missile is the fruit of that. Right now I don't think we have any anti-satellite capability or satellite defense capabilities.
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Re: Space Force

Post by Giz » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:02 am

Pyrrho wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
gnome wrote:Odds of current president paying any attention to "international agreement" hippie crap?
The USA won't be the first to claim and defend lunar real estate as sovereign territory.

That will be whichever country is the first to set up a permanent base and exploit natural resources.

China or perhaps India.
Delivery of those natural resources in sufficient bulk for a decent ROI gonna be a bit tricky ...
The first use of such resources would be for expanding the base without building materials shipped from Earth.
With or without union labor?
Picket line on the moon? Now that's progress!

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Re: Space Force

Post by sparks » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:03 am

WildCat wrote:
sparks wrote:Been there, tried that. And it's name was Ronnie. SDI indeed.
No, SDI was an ABM system, the Patriot missile is the fruit of that. Right now I don't think we have any anti-satellite capability or satellite defense capabilities.
You're right in that we don't have an anti satellite/satellite defense capability. Why? Because it can't fucking work on technical, economic and political reasons any more than the ABM SDI thingy could work. You're citing the Patriot missile as a defense against enemy ICBMs.

If that's the case, I believe you're wrong about this in that they are, overall, ineffective.

From Wikipedia:

"SDI experiments in the 1980s
Main article: Strategic Defense Initiative

The Reagan-era Strategic Defense Initiative (often referred to as "Star Wars"), along with research into various energy-beam weaponry, brought new interest in the area of ABM technologies.

SDI was an extremely ambitious program to provide a total shield against a massive Soviet ICBM attack. The initial concept envisioned large sophisticated orbiting laser battle stations, space-based relay mirrors, and nuclear-pumped X-ray laser satellites. Later research indicated that some planned technologies such as X-ray lasers were not feasible with then-current technology. As research continued, SDI evolved through various concepts as designers struggled with the difficulty of such a large complex defense system. SDI remained a research program and was never deployed. Several post-SDI technologies are used by the present Missile Defense Agency (MDA).

Lasers originally developed for the SDI plan are in use for astronomical observations. Used to ionize gas in the upper atmosphere, they provide telescope operators with a target to calibrate their instruments.[59]
Tactical ABMs deployed in 1990s

The Israeli Arrow missile system was tested initially during 1990, before the first Gulf War. The Arrow was supported by the United States throughout the 1990s.

The Patriot was the first deployed tactical ABM system, although it was not designed from the outset for that task and consequently had limitations. It was used during the 1991 Gulf War to attempt to intercept Iraqi Scud missiles. Post-war analyses show that the Patriot was much less effective than initially thought because of its radar and control system's inability to discriminate warheads from other objects when the Scud missiles broke up during reentry.

Testing ABM technology continued during the 1990s with mixed success. After the Gulf War, improvements were made to several U.S. air defense systems. A new Patriot, PAC-3, was developed and tested—a complete redesign of the PAC-2 deployed during the war, including a totally new missile. The improved guidance, radar and missile performance improves the probability of kill over the earlier PAC-2. During Operation Iraqi Freedom, Patriot PAC-3s had a nearly 100% success rate against Iraqi TBMs fired. However, since no longer range Iraqi Scud missiles were used, PAC-3 effectiveness against those was untested. Patriot was involved in three friendly fire incidents: two incidents of Patriot shootings at coalition aircraft and one of U.S. aircraft shooting at a Patriot battery.[60]

A new version of the Hawk missile was tested during the early to mid-1990s and by the end of 1998 the majority of US Marine Corps Hawk systems were modified to support basic theater anti-ballistic missile capabilities.[61] MIM-23 Hawk missile is not operational in the U.S. service since 2002, but is used by many other countries.
Developed in the late 1990s, the Lightweight Exo-Atmospheric Projectile attaches to a modified SM-2 Block IV missile used by the U.S. Navy

Soon after the Gulf war, the Aegis combat system was expanded to include ABM capabilities. The Standard missile system was also enhanced and tested for ballistic missile interception. During the late 1990s, SM-2 block IVA missiles were tested in a theater ballistic missile defense function.[62] Standard Missile 3 (SM-3) systems have also been tested for an ABM role. In 2008, an SM-3 missile launched from a Ticonderoga-class cruiser, the USS Lake Erie, successfully intercepted a non-functioning satellite.[63][64]

From 1992 to 2000, a demonstration system for the US Army Terminal High Altitude Area Defense was deployed at White Sands Missile Range. Tests were conducted on a regular basis and resulted in early failures, but successful intercepts occurred from 1999 onward. Full fielding of the first THAAD battery began in 2009.[65]"

So, while some success have been recorded, I doubt that when taken in the context of technical, economic and political reasoning that one could claim a great rate of return on these things.
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Re: Space Force

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:24 am

However, as elsewhere noted, SDI is the perfect example of a successful bluff, possibly by accident.
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Re: Space Force

Post by WildCat » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:52 am

I don't see why anyone thinks a anti-satellite weapon wouldn't be effective. Satellites move in predictable orbits and that makes them incredibly vulnerable.
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Re: Space Force

Post by Rob Lister » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:17 pm

WildCat wrote:I don't see why anyone thinks a anti-satellite weapon wouldn't be effective. Satellites move in predictable orbits and that makes them incredibly vulnerable.
Anti-satellite weapons are perfectly reasonable. The RIM-161 is just one such weapon system. Russia and China have their systems.

But you said
WildCat wrote:This isn't about armed humans in space, not in the foreseeable future anyway. More like developing satellites to defend against anti-satellite spacecraft.
Countermeasures for anti-satellite weapons don't exist, so far as I know. And probably won't ever, for the same reason you said,
WildCat wrote:Satellites move in predictable orbits and that makes them incredibly vulnerable.
And even if they could be devised how would a new Space Force enable that?

We have an existing infrastructure under the auspices of the DOD that works fine. And if it doesn't work fine, why not? Seems to me it's just moving the existing infrastructure up three levels in what amounts to a new fiefdom. Sorry to piss in the mote.

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Re: Space Force

Post by Nyarlathotep » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:26 pm

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Re: Space Force

Post by xouper » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:38 pm

Rob Lister wrote:Anti-satellite weapons are perfectly reasonable.
Speaking of that . . . I've been waiting for someone to point out the obvious flaw in using anti-satellite weapons.

Anyone?

Anyone?


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Re: Space Force

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:58 pm

Something about the munitions staying in orbit?

There was a science fiction short story in either Galaxy or Fantasy and Science Fiction.
I forget the author, but it was definitely written not long before the real life moon landing.

An international incident between the USA and USSR moonbases between sentries armed with rifles ... :BigGrin3: ... results in international cooperation to build a wall in a big hurry before the ammo comes back around in orbit.
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Re: Space Force

Post by sparks » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:51 pm

xouper wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:Anti-satellite weapons are perfectly reasonable.
Speaking of that . . . I've been waiting for someone to point out the obvious flaw in using anti-satellite weapons.

Anyone?

Anyone?


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Re: Space Force

Post by Nyarlathotep » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:06 pm

It's a good way to kick off an ablation cascade which would fuck up everyone, not just one's enemies.
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