Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

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Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby WildCat » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:55 pm

Elizabeth Warren, Kirsten Gillibrand, Corey Booker, Kamala Harris "is not ruling it out"... can anyone make a case that the Democratic Party is now the party of open borders, unlimited immigration, and no enforcement of any and all immigration laws?

They are advocating national suicide, you cannot have a sovereign nation without borders.
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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby Pyrrho » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:11 pm

Abolishing ICE doesn't necessarily mean open borders and no enforcement...but Trump wins again.
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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby Pyrrho » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:13 pm

There are idiots who do advocate for open borders, however.
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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby ed » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:27 pm

Pyrrho wrote:Abolishing ICE doesn't necessarily mean open borders and no enforcement...but Trump wins again.


Not really. Recall that the underlying principle behind the sanctuary city movement is that non-federal LE should not enforce federal law.

Ergo, no ICE, no enforcement. Unless there are crimes that can be prosecuted on a local level. That means that rather than shift the baddies out, we pay to incarcerate them. Afterwards they would, presumably, be released into the population again. Thing is that there would bot be a mechanism for deportation.
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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby WildCat » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:47 pm

Pyrrho wrote:Abolishing ICE doesn't necessarily mean open borders and no enforcement...but Trump wins again.

I'm pretty certain it does, since those Democrats have no plans to replace it with an agency that will enforce immigration laws.
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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby Giz » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:52 pm

WildCat wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Abolishing ICE doesn't necessarily mean open borders and no enforcement...but Trump wins again.

I'm pretty certain it does, since those Democrats have no plans to replace it with an agency that will enforce immigration laws.


This.

If you want ICE abolished, the onus is on you to say what you would replace it with. If you don’t say how you would replace it, it is fair to assume that you are against border control.

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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby corplinx » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Well, I guess Trump is an 8 year president.

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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby Nyarlathotep » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:49 pm

Was gonna be no matter what. Unless he chokes on a ham sandwich or something else unforeseen

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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby Nyarlathotep » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:57 pm

But even taking the small chance he could have been unseated into account, the only thing that matters (election-wise) is how this plays to the Dems base.

Elections aren’t won by converting the other side, that’s basically impossible. They are won by playing to ones base. So what Trump supporters think of this is (almost) irrelevant in that respect
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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby Anaxagoras » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:06 am

With Trump we were told "Oh don't worry, he won't actually do all those crazy things he said he would do" so we can safely ignore the things he says that are just "pandering to the base".

I think the same thing applies here. Even if they say they want to "abolish ICE", it would still take an act of congress to actually do that. It's mainly for the political activists. In the general election they will "tack back to the center". It'll turn out that what they really meant was some sort of relabling of the bureaucratic function. Maybe it would go back under the INS like it used to be.
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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby corplinx » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:32 am

I would say that pandering to extremists is a bad idea, but they've fomented extremism so much that their base is now basically very extreme. They are pandering to the base. It's sad and pathetic that this is the ring kiss.

Instead of protecting the party from violent neo-marxists and radical post-modernists, they've groomed them to the point where they are now afraid of them.

They can lie in the bed they've made and be happy with only winning their strongholds that win D every election anyway.

They've killed the closest thing we had to a Labor party in America. Instead of representing Workers (the best of marxism) they now represent the legacy of Frankfurt school neo-marxist bullshit. Trotsky would pen some brilliant essays on this.

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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby corplinx » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:36 am

Image

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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby Nyarlathotep » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:52 am

corplinx wrote:I would say that pandering to extremists is a bad idea, but they've fomented extremism so much that their base is now basically very extreme. They are pandering to the base. It's sad and pathetic that this is the ring kiss.

Instead of protecting the party from violent neo-marxists and radical post-modernists, they've groomed them to the point where they are now afraid of them.

They can lie in the bed they've made and be happy with only winning their strongholds that win D every election anyway.

They've killed the closest thing we had to a Labor party in America. Instead of representing Workers (the best of marxism) they now represent the legacy of Frankfurt school neo-marxist bullshit. Trotsky would pen some brilliant essays on this.


It's the forseeable end point of the way elections have run for a long time. We have created a system that encourages playing to the most extreme elements of both parties. That pushes the extremes to further extremes. We are simply seeing the peak (or perhaps the nadir, depending on how you look at it) of that process.

Any idiot could have forseen this, and I suspect many did. But everyone was so short sighted nobody cared, so long as they got theirs at the time. And here we are. We all should be very proud of ourselves.
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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby Doctor X » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:31 am

I would say that elections are won by convincing enough of the inbetweeners that Your Asshole is less dangerous than That Asshole. Now if a candidate is chosen such that the respective Base is unhappy, said Base may not turn out enough.

The bottom line, despite Her Turn's excuses, she was not liked by even her own party. It just seems, in retrospect, a tragedy that the Republicans did not field a better candidate. We have all been over this before: I am not aware of anyone HERE singing the praises of a Cruz, or Rubio, or bwa . . . BwA! HA!HA!HA!HA!HA! Ben Carson! JEB?!

But maybe a sane Republican would not have beaten her, I do not know. Of course, I have not encountered too many sane Republicans.

Nor Democrats.






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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby Nyarlathotep » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:38 am

Doctor X wrote:I would say that elections are won by convincing enough of the inbetweeners that Your Asshole is less dangerous than That Asshole. Now if a candidate is chosen such that the respective Base is unhappy, said Base may not turn out enough.


There aren't really enough "inbetweeners" to really swing an election, considering that they usually end up breaking roughly the same proportions as their committed party brethren. According to this article they are about 5% of the electorate and falling. And they don't really swing all that much. If they voted R last time, they will probably vote R next time. Ditto for D. So the campaigns increasingly don't bother with them. They know that if they either already have them, or they ain't getting them

And that may be just fine with the two big parties that govern the nation. There’s evidence that they devote more attention to rallying committed supporters than reaching out to the uncommitted in presidential campaigns. They’ve been moving in that direction since 2000, when the virtual dead heat between George W. Bush and Al Gore showed them – and the rest of the nation – how closely balanced Republicans and Democrats are.


It is almost like most inbetweeners are really Republicans or Democrats that don't like labels.
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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby Nyarlathotep » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:42 am

And think of it this way, if you don't consider yourself a hard core Democrat or Republican.

Do you feel in charge (as Bane might say)? Do you feel like the major parties are catering to you, trying to win you over? Do you feel like they even give a fractional shit what you think?

I sure the fuck don't
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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby Doctor X » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:50 am

Nyarlathotep wrote:There aren't really enough "inbetweeners" to really swing an election. . . .


They swung this last one. Her Turn lost women who voted for Obama. Critical hit.

If they voted R last time, they will probably vote R next time.


See above.

It is one of the more embarrassing realities Her Turn and her sycophants do not like to deal with.

That is just one.

I do not deny the importance of the Base. Most cannot get a nomination without [CENSORED--Ed.] the Base. Sometimes the Base shifts as Her Turn learned, but, seriously, she remained an odious choice that just as Republicans did not want a Cruz, Rubio, or "A Dumber Bush"--and JEB! is, he so is--the Democrats by and large really did not want Her Turn. Sanders is a punchline in any other election.

Heck, the fact she lost to an unqualified cog from the Chicago Machine should have told her, and others, something.

The next election will come down to that small percentage making a similar decision. The longer the country does not fall into Apocalypse in 9/8 benefits Trump as it did with Obama . . . and even George the Younger.

But what do I know? I am sure, somewhere HERE, I wrote, "Look, stupid, Trump is in this for a new reality show! He is not winning a fucking nomination! Now watch me Do Your Mom!"

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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby Nyarlathotep » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:57 am

Democrats not liking Hillary and staying home had a greater effect than crossing party lines. Republicans did a good job at playing to their base. Democrats did not. And while I realize this is 100% anecdotal, the people I know who are Democrats but did not like Hillary's biggest gripe about her (drumroll please)? Too centrist, too much like a Republican. This does not suggest that going after the middle is a particularly bright idea in modern politics. If you are a Dem it will get you labelled as too centrist/corporate/whatever. If you are a Republican it will get you labeled a RINO. Either way, you are done
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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby WildCat » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:45 am

If you look beyond the personality and to his actual policies Trump is actually a centrist. The Democrats have moved so far to the left to them it appears that the GOP has moved to the right, when in fact it's right where it's always been. After all it was less than 20 years ago that even Democrats claimed to be against illegal immigration, wanted to talk with and deal with Russia (actually that was less than 8 years ago), claimed to be Capitalists, etc.
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Re: Every Prospective Democrat Candidate For 2020 Now Calls For ICE To Be Abolished

Postby corplinx » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:38 pm

Image

Bernie Sanders failed the purity test, oh my.


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