July 4 Civil War

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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby xouper » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:10 pm

Skeeve wrote:
Nyarlathotep wrote:...
There is a whole thread on this board ("The Schadenfreude Thread") whose whole POINT is celebrating making liberals mad.
...

:?
I thought "The Schadenfreude Thread" was all about enjoying liberal tears...


Exactly.

The error Nyarlathotep made is inferring that celebrating  of those liberal tears means that the primary motive of Trump supporters was to cause  those tears. That's a faulty inference.

On the contrary, causing liberal tears was not the primary motive of those Trump supporters in that thread. In fact, I think it's safe to say none of the posters in that thread were the direct cause of any of those liberal tears they were celebrating.

Most Trump supporters do what they do because they have public policies they want implemented. They are not doing it for the primary purpose of causing Trump Derangement Syndrome in other people.

Contrast that with the #NeverTrumpers whose primary motive is to destroy Trump, irrespective of policy agendas, and in fact even when Trump does something they approve of, they suddenly are against it because "Trump".

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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby ed » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:13 pm

Yes, but as I and many others have found, the CAUSING of those tears is pretty darn rewarding.
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Nyarlathotep » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:49 pm

QED
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Nyarlathotep » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:22 pm

Skeeve wrote:
Nyarlathotep wrote:...
There is a whole thread on this board ("The Schadenfreude Thread") whose whole POINT is celebrating making liberals mad.
...

:?
I thought "The Schadenfreude Thread" was all about enjoying liberal tears...


That’s what I said. Which part was unclear?
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:22 pm

Nyar is right.

Making them cry (or scream with rage) is not always an end in itself, but it certainly is not considered an unfortunate side effect.

Of course this goes both ways.

What is new is that right wingers have just now discovered the tactic or at least are finally getting good at it.
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby xouper » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:35 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Nyar is right.


No, he's not. His observation only applies to a small subset of Trump supporters. His observation (and RCC's) does not apply to the majority of Trump supporters.

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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:42 pm

xouper wrote: .. His observation (and RCC's) does not apply to the majority of Trump supporters ...


You mean it applies only to the audible ones? :P
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby xouper » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:07 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
xouper wrote: .. His observation (and RCC's) does not apply to the majority of Trump supporters ...


You mean it applies only to the audible ones? :P


LOL

No, it does not apply to all of the audible ones. :P

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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Nyarlathotep » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:14 pm

Remember kiddies,

generalizations and broad brushes are wrong when applied to righties.

For lefties, though, they are always 100% accurate
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:25 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:Remember kiddies,

generalizations and broad brushes are wrong when applied to righties.

For lefties, though, they are always 100% accurate


Only the audible ones. :cowbell:
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby xouper » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:26 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:Remember kiddies,

generalizations and broad brushes are wrong when applied to righties.

For lefties, though, they are always 100% accurate


This kind of sarcasm is not helpful. Especially since it is not grounded in reality.

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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Nyarlathotep » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:30 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Nyarlathotep wrote:Remember kiddies,

generalizations and broad brushes are wrong when applied to righties.

For lefties, though, they are always 100% accurate


Only the audible ones. :cowbell:


I'll buy that.

But by audible you mean, "makes any sound whatsoever" right? Like their footsteps still make noise.

Though I will be happy to exclude hyper partisan ninjas from my observation. Mostly because they are fucking ninjas and I don't want to piss them off
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:30 pm

Oooh looky.

LIBBERULz and KKKonservatives getting along. :lmao:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5ivbqib3qM
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby RCC: Act II » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:43 pm

xouper wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:That isn't trolling. I'm being totally genuine. I 100% believe it, and am not in any way saying it for the purpose of making anyone who is an asshole upset or because I like making assholes upset or thinking that making assholes upset is an end worth pursuing. I don't do that because I try not to be an asshole.


I'll accept that.


RCC: Act II wrote:... It is the people excited or motivated about the opportunity to cause pain that are the problem, and there are an awful lot of them revolving around Trump.


No more so than liberals who do the same.

And yet those are not the people who define the majority of either side, which was my initial point.


Maybe. Liberals can suck, but for not quite the same reasons.

The more I think about it the more it might have to do with those that see the world as a zero sum situation. In a truly zero-sum situation where, say, wealth, is finite, being motivated to impoverish others and being motivated to gain wealth are the same thing.

Outside of games, there are very few zero-sum situations in life, so this sort of mindset is, well, stupid. Problem is, the brain is sort of wired to think this way, and when this premise is assumed, there really isn't a reason to not see hurting others as the key to success.

Trump is zero-sum to the point of absurdity. He claims to be this great dealmaker. A great dealmaker makes a deal where everyone benefits. That's why it is a deal. There is a reason Trump has had a ton of trouble finding business partners and has just totally failed to get much of anything through congress. The idea that in making deals that artful compromise and creativity are more important than raw leverage and deception used to force or trick someone into something is just not part of his mindset.

I more or less make deals for a living. I've seen prosecutors who think like this like come and go, and mostly go. Or at least change. Most new prosecutors come into office all hard and talking about never compromising and blah blah blah. Then the consequences of taking everything to the mattresses stack up, and they flee or change and it is back to reasonable plea deals. Trump doesn't seem capable of learning this lesson. He has both houses of congress and is facing an opposition party in turmoil and that lacks cohesion. Even when the filibuster is an issue they could be picking off red state and moderate democrats left and right and passing stuff like mad were he interested in making deals rather than conquest. At this point he can't even get the house rowing in the same direction, which is astounding.



Obama mostly failed for more or less the converse reason: He couldn't see he was facing an opposition party that had near flawless party discipline and adjust to it. So he mostly just farted out EOs rather than really go to the mattresses and ruthlessly attack that discipline. He's the defense attorney that reacts to the new prosecutor by whining and talking clients into absurdly bad plea deals rather than taking everything to trial.

Which of these maladies are worse in general is one of those philosophical questions, but there obviously needs to be some balance. People who think everything is zero-sum combat are enabled by those who never think it is.

As people, Trump is worse because he's a fucking lunatic as to this. I mean, the guy once said he doesn't exercise because the body has a finite about of energy and exercise just depletes it. Which is a pretty starkly batshit insane example of zero-sum thinking.


Obama might have been a pussy, but not to that level. Dukakis stumbling over the question about someone raping his wife didn't even make him a batboy in the league Trump plays in. Even Carter fought off the killer rabbit when the chips were down.

So, as to the original point, it is hard to support Trump, or even not think he is flatly incompetent, without adopting or at least tacitly accepting some degree of excessive zero-sum mindset, so whether most Trump supporters are committed assholes or collaborative assholes or just have stink on them from being in the area of those assholes is a fair question.

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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby corplinx » Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Obama got Obamacare and the Stimulus through on his watch with his party. The reason he lost congress to the party of Nobama! is because those bills were huge steaming piles of shit.

When the stimulus arrived, liberal commentators on TV were like "seriously? this is it". Meanwhile, conservative commentators got to go through the laundry list of small time projects that totally weren't earmarks because it wasn't a budget.

Obama couldn't even make deals with his own party probably because Hillary was subverting him to setup her own next run.

He should never have made her Sec. State. He should have stayed true to his campaign foreign policy values and not let her run things.

He should have stayed true to his values for healthcare and not let Pelosi push through that abomination which got called Obamacare despite him getting the shaft from his own party on it.

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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:21 pm

corplinx wrote:He should never have made her Sec. State. He should have stayed true to his campaign foreign policy values and not let her run things.


I disagree with this assessment of what happened.

There was no change in foreign policy when Hillary became Secretary of State. Or when Trump became president.

It has been the same bipartisan foreign policy all along.

What candidates say to get elected is irrelevant.
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Nyarlathotep » Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:23 pm

I agree with AA.

War is quite profitable. Eternal war eternally so.
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Giz » Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:36 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
corplinx wrote:He should never have made her Sec. State. He should have stayed true to his campaign foreign policy values and not let her run things.


I disagree with this assessment of what happened.

There was no change in foreign policy when Hillary became Secretary of State. Or when Trump became president.

It has been the same bipartisan foreign policy all along.

What candidates say to get elected is irrelevant.


While there's been broad consensus, there are noticable differences in attitude, philosophy and strategy between
Bush, Obama and Trump.

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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby xouper » Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:36 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:The more I think about it the more it might have to do with those that see the world as a zero sum situation. In a truly zero-sum situation where, say, wealth, is finite, being motivated to impoverish others and being motivated to gain wealth are the same thing.

Outside of games, there are very few zero-sum situations in life, so this sort of mindset is, well, stupid. Problem is, the brain is sort of wired to think this way, and when this premise is assumed, there really isn't a reason to not see hurting others as the key to success.

Trump is zero-sum to the point of absurdity. He claims to be this great dealmaker. A great dealmaker makes a deal where everyone benefits. That's why it is a deal. There is a reason Trump has had a ton of trouble finding business partners and has just totally failed to get much of anything through congress. The idea that in making deals that artful compromise and creativity are more important than raw leverage and deception used to force or trick someone into something is just not part of his mindset.

I more or less make deals for a living. I've seen prosecutors who think like this like come and go, and mostly go. Or at least change. Most new prosecutors come into office all hard and talking about never compromising and blah blah blah. Then the consequences of taking everything to the mattresses stack up, and they flee or change and it is back to reasonable plea deals. Trump doesn't seem capable of learning this lesson. He has both houses of congress and is facing an opposition party in turmoil and that lacks cohesion. Even when the filibuster is an issue they could be picking off red state and moderate democrats left and right and passing stuff like mad were he interested in making deals rather than conquest. At this point he can't even get the house rowing in the same direction, which is astounding.



Obama mostly failed for more or less the converse reason: He couldn't see he was facing an opposition party that had near flawless party discipline and adjust to it. So he mostly just farted out EOs rather than really go to the mattresses and ruthlessly attack that discipline. He's the defense attorney that reacts to the new prosecutor by whining and talking clients into absurdly bad plea deals rather than taking everything to trial.

Which of these maladies are worse in general is one of those philosophical questions, but there obviously needs to be some balance. People who think everything is zero-sum combat are enabled by those who never think it is.

As people, Trump is worse because he's a fucking lunatic as to this. I mean, the guy once said he doesn't exercise because the body has a finite about of energy and exercise just depletes it. Which is a pretty starkly batshit insane example of zero-sum thinking.


Obama might have been a pussy, but not to that level. Dukakis stumbling over the question about someone raping his wife didn't even make him a batboy in the league Trump plays in. Even Carter fought off the killer rabbit when the chips were down.

So, as to the original point, it is hard to support Trump, or even not think he is flatly incompetent, without adopting or at least tacitly accepting some degree of excessive zero-sum mindset, so whether most Trump supporters are committed assholes or collaborative assholes or just have stink on them from being in the area of those assholes is a fair question.


While I accept that you sincerely believe your own interpretations about Trump, I submit the above screed as evidence that Trump is like a Rorschach Test and that people see him through the filter of their own personal biases and prejudices, not as he truly is.

In other words, I do not agree with your opinions about Trump or his supporters.

Also, for the record, I am not a zero-sum kind of person. Nor is Trump.

In fact, I would suppose that the kind of hostility you display here towards the so-called "deplorables" will inspire more people to vote against your favorite candidates.

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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby RCC: Act II » Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:52 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
There was no change in foreign policy when Hillary became Secretary of State. Or when Trump became president.



Going from committed free trade to protectionism is a massive change.

Other than that, there is an argument that Trump's statements are business as usual, just that business as usual is being done at the direction of someone who seems to think robbing a gas station is a more efficient than just paying for the gas because free gas.


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