get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by xouper » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:06 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:22 pm
Also, it amuses me that transphobics think that this supports their side of the matter.

Please, all you lunkheads, exploit market inefficiencies by legally changing your gender to save a few bucks.

Now try to ban gay marriage again, or pass some bullshit bathroom bill.
xouper wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:21 pm
Nice red herring you got there, RCC.

It amuses me that some people mistakenly think this thread is about (or is intended to support) transphobia.
RCC: Act II wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:15 pm
The tactic where it is claimed that bringing up stuff that is commonly used to support transphobia (or any other garbage point of view) is just sharing info has also become boring to me. Your "law of unintended consequences" and the thumbs up in support of fraud pretty much establishes that the point here was to paint those who pursue trans-friendly policies as naive.

Bad faith bullshit, pure and simple.
Wow, the mere fact that you see bullshit where there is none suggests you have your head so far up your ass you can't even imagine there might be another point here. Not to mention you invoked the fallacy of guilt by association. It appears that your personal biases and prejudices are leading you astray here, causing you to totally misinterpret the point of the opening post.

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by RCC: Act II » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:05 pm

xouper wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:06 pm


Wow, the mere fact that you see bullshit where there is none suggests you have your head so far up your ass you can't even imagine there might be another point here. Not to mention you invoked the fallacy of guilt by association. It appears that your personal biases and prejudices are leading you astray here, causing you to totally misinterpret the point of the opening post.
lol

Like I said, just float something that hints a stance, and claim that it was misinterpreted when you get pushback rather than actually make a point.

Keep on trollin'.

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by RCC: Act II » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:09 pm

Giz wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:52 pm


As an aside, it is a refreshing change to see RCC taking the side of the patriarchy and insisting that it is best for society if women pay more than their true cost in order to subsidize men.
Now, that's some trolling I can appreciate.

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Skeeve » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:13 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:09 pm
Giz wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:52 pm

As an aside, it is a refreshing change to see RCC taking the side of the patriarchy and insisting that it is best for society if women pay more than their true cost in order to subsidize men.
Now, that's some trolling I can appreciate.
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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by RCC: Act II » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:41 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:41 pm


Insurance isn't gambling, it's risk sharing.
It isn't as it exists now, at least in theory. It is risk mitigation. Risk sharing is really just the result of the market not being efficient.


For profit insurance is gambling. They are taking money with the promise of paying out if an event happens, and they use expertise to lay a price that leaves them ahead in the long run. It has far more social utility than betting on a football game, but works the same way. (ETA: the risk mitigation is that I can pay a set small price 100% of the time rather than maybe pay a huge price some small % of the time)


It has some elements of risk sharing because law and limitations of data keep them from setting an optimal price on every person. So some people pay less and some people pay more than what they would were the company be able to precisely set individual prices. That's risk sharing, and as long as the people paying more stay in the pool, it works.


If we want to promote the idea of risk sharing, the for-profit insurance model isn't going to cut it. Insurance companies are always going to have obvious incentives to move away from risk sharing to setting different prices for different people.
Last edited by RCC: Act II on Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:45 pm

It's risk sharing except in a world where insurance companies are omniscient.

And because they know they are not omniscient, they behave accordingly (with due allowance for charging enough to make a profit).
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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by RCC: Act II » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:01 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:45 pm
It's risk sharing except in a world where insurance companies are omniscient.

And because they know they are not omniscient, they behave accordingly (with due allowance for charging enough to make a profit).
Right, but weakening laws and better data move them faster and faster towards omniscient and away from risk sharing.

That's the problem. Insurance in a free market is always going to move towards eliminating risk sharing because it risks losing the low-risk customers. So companies are always working to segregate risk pools. Safe driver discounts, discounts for putting tracking devices in the car, etc.

In the end, vulnerable people get priced out of the pools, and when they get wiped out it creates a whole mess of lingering problems. Uninsured drivers are a really bad thing given that the insurance is mostly for the benefit of others anyway.

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by xouper » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:25 pm

xouper wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:06 pm
Wow, the mere fact that you see bullshit where there is none suggests you have your head so far up your ass you can't even imagine there might be another point here. Not to mention you invoked the fallacy of guilt by association. It appears that your personal biases and prejudices are leading you astray here, causing you to totally misinterpret the point of the opening post.
RCC: Act II wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:05 pm
Like I said, just float something that hints a stance, and claim that it was misinterpreted when you get pushback rather than actually make a point.

Keep on trollin'.
It is not my problem that you deliberately chose to misinterpret what I wrote. Your so-called "pushback" was against something I did not say, and thus by definition is a classic straw man tactic.

If it seemed to you that I was not sufficiently clear in my point, you could have instead asked for clarification. That would have been the honorable thing to do.

But you did not.

And that fact shows bad faith on your part, not mine. Instead, you jumped in my shit without bothering to find out if I was actually saying what you thought I was saying. That error is on you, not me.

Also, it was not my intention to "troll" you (or anyone) into misinterpreting my point. But I am not surprised you would make such a bogus accusation as a way of deflecting your own responsibility for making false accusations about my motives or my message. I did not do anything in the opening post that hasn't been done by others a million times before on this forum and they have not been accused of trolling.

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by RCC: Act II » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:35 pm

xouper wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:25 pm
xouper wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:06 pm
Wow, the mere fact that you see bullshit where there is none suggests you have your head so far up your ass you can't even imagine there might be another point here. Not to mention you invoked the fallacy of guilt by association. It appears that your personal biases and prejudices are leading you astray here, causing you to totally misinterpret the point of the opening post.
RCC: Act II wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:05 pm
Like I said, just float something that hints a stance, and claim that it was misinterpreted when you get pushback rather than actually make a point.

Keep on trollin'.
It is not my problem that you deliberately chose to misinterpret what I wrote. Your so-called "pushback" was against something I did not say, and thus by definition is a classic straw man tactic.

If it seemed to you that I was not sufficiently clear in my point, you could have instead asked for clarification. That would have been the honorable thing to do.

But you did not.
lol. I've been mocking you for not stating your point at all in almost every post. I love the tone policing though. Right out of the troll handbook.

And that fact shows bad faith on your part, not mine. Instead, you jumped in my shit without bothering to find out if I was actually saying what you thought I was saying. That error is on you, not me.

Also, it was not my intention to "troll" you (or anyone) into misinterpreting my point. But I am not surprised you would make such a bogus accusation as a way of deflecting your own responsibility for making false accusations about my motives or my message. I did not do anything in the opening post that hasn't been done by others a million times before on this forum and they have not been accused of trolling.
Still no point given though. Just continuing to claim to be misinterpreted without supplying a correct interpretation.

Standard troll procedure. If it isn't intentional, it's kind of sad.

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by xouper » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:51 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:35 pm
I've been mocking you for not stating your point at all in almost every post.
Yes, I know.

But thanks for admitting that you were not interested in engaging in reasonable conversation, and instead were more interested in playing games and attacking me personally. And thus you did not deserve to be taken seriously in your complaint that I did not clarify my point.

Nonetheless, I will attempt to clarify it here.

The point of my opening post was to bring attention to the fact that certain laws intended to protect legitimate civil liberties (in this case those with various gender identities) were badly written and implemented. And someone found a clever way to make a mockery of that situation. I was applauding the implied criticism of the current laws because they are indeed deficient and need to be improved.

If that point needs further clarification, then please ask and I will be happy to explain what I mean.

However, if you are not interested in having a reasonable conversation and instead prefer to tilt against straw men and attack me personally, then I reserve the option to whine about it. :wink:

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by corplinx » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:01 pm

RCC quickly popped that balloon with "nope, this is just plain fraud" though. I think he's right.

I think Men running track events as women is where the circle jerk works best.

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by xouper » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:30 pm

corplinx wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:01 pm
RCC quickly popped that balloon with "nope, this is just plain fraud" though. I think he's right.
Are you saying you think the Province of Alberta can successfully prosecute "David" for criminal fraud?

More specifically, where in Canadian law does it specify what are not valid reasons for declaring one's gender?

Perhaps I am missing your point. If what "David" did is legal, then where is the fraud?

Taking advantage of loopholes in the law is not fraud, in my opinion. Taxpayers do it all the time and that is not considered fraud.

Perhaps I am missing your point?

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Skeeve » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:44 pm

xouper wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:30 pm
corplinx wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:01 pm
RCC quickly popped that balloon with "nope, this is just plain fraud" though. I think he's right.
Are you saying you think the Province of Alberta can successfully prosecute "David" for criminal fraud?

More specifically, where in Canadian law does it specify what are not valid reasons for declaring one's gender?

Perhaps I am missing your point. If what "David" did is legal, then where is the fraud?

Taking advantage of loopholes in the law is not fraud, in my opinion. Taxpayers do it all the time and that is not considered fraud.

Perhaps I am missing your point?
I wonder if Laura Southern now gets to pay a higher rate on her his insurance...
Canadian Lauren Southern becomes a man!
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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by corplinx » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:56 pm

xouper wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:30 pm


Are you saying you think the Province of Alberta can successfully prosecute "David" for criminal fraud?

It it walks like fraud and talks like fraud it probably is fraud. This person falsified a document to get a discount.

Whether they can be charged with something? iduno
Does it meet some kind of legal definition of fraud? dunno, dont care

My point is, this isn't the outrage you are looking for.

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by xouper » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:10 pm

corplinx wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:56 pm
It it walks like fraud and talks like fraud it probably is fraud. This person falsified a document to get a discount.
Please pardon my lack of imagination — in what way did this person falsify any documents?
corplinx wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:56 pm
My point is, this isn't the outrage you are looking for.
If that is your point, then I have no quarrel with your opinion, although I thinks it's an exaggeration to characterize my point as "outrage". I am not outraged. I am merely amused, which I assumed would be evident from the smiley in the opening post.

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:29 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:01 pm
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:45 pm
It's risk sharing except in a world where insurance companies are omniscient.

And because they know they are not omniscient, they behave accordingly (with due allowance for charging enough to make a profit).
Right, but weakening laws and better data move them faster and faster towards omniscient and away from risk sharing.

That's the problem. Insurance in a free market is always going to move towards eliminating risk sharing because it risks losing the low-risk customers. So companies are always working to segregate risk pools. Safe driver discounts, discounts for putting tracking devices in the car, etc.

In the end, vulnerable people get priced out of the pools, and when they get wiped out it creates a whole mess of lingering problems. Uninsured drivers are a really bad thing given that the insurance is mostly for the benefit of others anyway.
But of course we haven't a "free market" in insurance or anything like one.

It is a very heavily regulated industry especially at the state level.

And auto liability insurance is required by law.

You know, like Obamacare. :P
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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:31 pm

Just as an aside, I think RCC is wrong about a few things in this thread, but not anywhere near a wrong as some of you other guys. 8)
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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by ed » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:36 pm

The point is that once you get away from objective definitions whatever it "is" is largely irrelevant.

Current thinking is that gender is a construct so that one can self identify as anything at any time. You parameterize it, you are some sort of phobic.

I, for one, choose to identify as female. Coincidentally, that means that my business is female owned. Excellent. Insofar as race is a construct with no objective reality, I may get back to my African roots which might, so I hear, make my business eligible for special consideration whilst we bid on government contracts. Call me on it why don't cha. You are a racist and I should know, being a person of color. Female and minority owned. BTW one becomes a muslim by simple declaration, swearing to make a pilgrimage eventually and some other important stuff. Doubt my sincerity? You are an Islamophobe, you bastard.

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:48 pm

ed wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:36 pm
The point is that once you get away from objective definitions whatever it "is" is largely irrelevant.

Current thinking is that gender is a construct so that one can self identify as anything at any time. You parameterize it, you are some sort of phobic.

I, for one, choose to identify as female. Coincidentally, that means that my business is female owned. Excellent. Insofar as race is a construct with no objective reality, I may get back to my African roots which might, so I hear, make my business eligible for special consideration whilst we bid on government contracts. Call me on it why don't cha. You are a racist and I should know, being a person of color. Female and minority owned. BTW one becomes a muslim by simple declaration, swearing to make a pilgrimage eventually and some other important stuff. Doubt my sincerity? You are an Islamophobe, you bastard.

It's nice (and profitable) here on the other side of the looking glass.
Cute, but in the real world you can't get away with it.

Because arguments about "social constructs" are not the law, even for Democrats.

And while there's plenty to criticize about lefties who use trans people as ideological human shields, this insurance case is merely one guy who will not get what he wants.
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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:26 pm

Actually ed makes some interesting points that need to be discussed separate from insurance, so I'm starting a new thread quoting him.

viewtopic.php?p=924307#p924307
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