get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
User avatar
RCC: Act II
Posts: 837
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 am
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 87 times

Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by RCC: Act II » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:50 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:29 pm


But of course we haven't a "free market" in insurance or anything like one.

It is a very heavily regulated industry especially at the state level.

And auto liability insurance is required by law.

You know, like Obamacare. :P
Exactly. That's my point. The government has to force companies and individuals to sometimes act against their own interests to use insurance as a way to pool risk. It might be a better idea to let the government handle the risk pooling because it isn't a free market function any more than is having a military.

User avatar
RCC: Act II
Posts: 837
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 am
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 87 times

Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by RCC: Act II » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:58 pm

xouper wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:10 pm
corplinx wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:56 pm
It it walks like fraud and talks like fraud it probably is fraud. This person falsified a document to get a discount.
Please pardon my lack of imagination — in what way did this person falsify any documents?
Fraud is a question of intent. Putting something on a government form you know to not be true in order to gain some financial benefit is fraud.
From the story:
"I'm a man, 100 per cent. Legally, I'm a woman," he said.

"I did it for cheaper car insurance."
After doing some research, he realized he needed a doctor's note to show the government he identifies as a woman, even though he doesn't.
It would be enough to get to a jury right there. Further investigation probably turns up a handful of witnesses with worse statements.

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8737
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 129 times

Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by xouper » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:12 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:58 pm
xouper wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:10 pm
corplinx wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:56 pm
It it walks like fraud and talks like fraud it probably is fraud. This person falsified a document to get a discount.
Please pardon my lack of imagination — in what way did this person falsify any documents?
Fraud is a question of intent. Putting something on a government form you know to not be true in order to gain some financial benefit is fraud.
From the story:
"I'm a man, 100 per cent. Legally, I'm a woman," he said.

"I did it for cheaper car insurance."
After doing some research, he realized he needed a doctor's note to show the government he identifies as a woman, even though he doesn't.
It would be enough to get to a jury right there. Further investigation probably turns up a handful of witnesses with worse statements.
Since when is it illegal in Canada to identify as a woman if your motive is financial gain?

Are you saying the law only allows certain kinds of motives in order to legally identify as a woman in Canada? If so, do you have a citation in Canadian law to back that up?

So what if he says he is female for legal purposes even though other times he identifies as a man? Are people not allowed to have fluid gender identities as the situation changes? Where in Canadian law, as written, is that illegal?

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 70759
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 3163 times
Been thanked: 1169 times

Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:36 pm

Hey xoup!

Being female == a 23% pay cut doncha know.

Cheaper insurance rates are only justice, even if that's not what motivates insurance companies. :p
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
RCC: Act II
Posts: 837
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 am
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 87 times

Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by RCC: Act II » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:00 pm

xouper wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:12 pm

Since when is it illegal in Canada to identify as a woman if your motive is financial gain?

Are you saying the law only allows certain kinds of motives in order to legally identify as a woman in Canada? If so, do you have a citation in Canadian law to back that up?

So what if he says he is female for legal purposes even though other times he identifies as a man? Are people not allowed to have fluid gender identities as the situation changes? Where in Canadian law, as written, is that illegal?
If he's lying about it on a government document for financial gain, it is fraud. Even when we apply the George Costanza subjective standard (It isn't a lie if I believe it) then it just becomes a bit harder to prove, but telling other people that you don't really identify as a woman and are doing it solely to get cheaper car insurance is pretty good evidence.

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8737
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 129 times

Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by xouper » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:13 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:00 pm
xouper wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:12 pm

Since when is it illegal in Canada to identify as a woman if your motive is financial gain?

Are you saying the law only allows certain kinds of motives in order to legally identify as a woman in Canada? If so, do you have a citation in Canadian law to back that up?

So what if he says he is female for legal purposes even though other times he identifies as a man? Are people not allowed to have fluid gender identities as the situation changes? Where in Canadian law, as written, is that illegal?
If he's lying about it on a government document for financial gain, it is fraud. Even when we apply the George Costanza subjective standard (It isn't a lie if I believe it) then it just becomes a bit harder to prove, but telling other people that you don't really identify as a woman and are doing it solely to get cheaper car insurance is pretty good evidence.
That does not establish that he lied on his government documents. It merely establishes that you don't like his reason for identifying as female on government documents.

Your argument seems to contain the fallacy called "begging the question" or "assuming the conclusion" or "circular reasoning".

So I will ask my question again: How do you intend to prove that it is a lie to identify as a female even though his primary motive is for financial gain? It is not illegal to identify as both female and male depending on the circumstances.

Taking advantage of a legal loophole — even if you admit that's what you are doing — is not evidence of lying nor is it fraud.

User avatar
RCC: Act II
Posts: 837
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 am
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 87 times

Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by RCC: Act II » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:35 pm

xouper wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:13 pm


So I will ask my question again: How do you intend to prove that it is a lie to identify as a female even though his primary motive is for financial gain? It is not illegal to identify as both female and male depending on the circumstances.

Taking advantage of a legal loophole — even if you admit that's what you are doing — is not evidence of lying nor is it fraud.

If you admit you are lying for financial gain it is evidence that you are lying for financial gain. Really good evidence, actually. Enough to carry a reasonable doubt burden, imo.

Saying that you don't identify as a woman yet said you do on a government document in order to save money on car insurance is basically that.

Sure, you can present any number of convoluted gender fluidity arguments to claim that you really do identify as a woman any time that it would be relevant to driving a car and that is what you meant when you say you didn't identify as a woman. Good luck with that in court.

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8737
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 129 times

Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by xouper » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:14 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:35 pm
xouper wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:13 pm


So I will ask my question again: How do you intend to prove that it is a lie to identify as a female even though his primary motive is for financial gain? It is not illegal to identify as both female and male depending on the circumstances.

Taking advantage of a legal loophole — even if you admit that's what you are doing — is not evidence of lying nor is it fraud.
If you admit you are lying for financial gain it is evidence that you are lying for financial gain. Really good evidence, actually. Enough to carry a reasonable doubt burden, imo.
Except that "David" did not admit he was lying. That is your personal interpretation.

RCC: Act II wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:35 pm
Saying that you don't identify as a woman yet said you do on a government document in order to save money on car insurance is basically that.
Not so. Just because you don't like his motive for identifying as female does not mean he is lying, even when he says that's the only reason he changed his government documents to identify as female.

There is no law (in Canada) that says you can't identify as both, depending on the circumstances. Where does it say in Canadian law that you cannot identify as a particular gender on your government documents, and then other times also identify as another gender different from your legal documents.

You have not established that he lied or committed fraud under Canadian law. You have not shown that he used a prohibited reason for identifying as female on his government documents.

User avatar
RCC: Act II
Posts: 837
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 am
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 87 times

Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by RCC: Act II » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:57 pm

Saying you are 100% something and then filing a government document claiming otherwise is about as clear an admission that the document is a lie as there can be.

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8737
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 129 times

Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by xouper » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:17 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:57 pm
Saying you are 100% something and then filing a government document claiming otherwise is about as clear an admission that the document is a lie as there can be.
You keep making that claim, but you have not cited any Canadian law to support it.

Where in Canadian law does it say you cannot gender identify as female on government documents and at the same time identify as biological male?

As far as I know, there is no law against doing that in Canada.

And in fact, according to Bill C-16, accusing him of lying about his gender identity can be construed as hate speech and land you in legal trouble. So be careful what you say when you are in Canada, since they do not have the same kind of free speech protections as the US.

User avatar
Anaxagoras
Posts: 21453
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am
Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan
Has thanked: 1386 times
Been thanked: 1174 times

Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:14 pm

xouper wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:17 pm
RCC: Act II wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:57 pm
Saying you are 100% something and then filing a government document claiming otherwise is about as clear an admission that the document is a lie as there can be.
You keep making that claim, but you have not cited any Canadian law to support it.

Where in Canadian law does it say you cannot gender identify as female on government documents and at the same time identify as biological male?

As far as I know, there is no law against doing that in Canada.

And in fact, according to Bill C-16, accusing him of lying about his gender identity can be construed as hate speech and land you in legal trouble. So be careful what you say when you are in Canada, since they do not have the same kind of free speech protections as the US.
It's pretty neat what you can Google these days.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts ... n-380.html
Fraud

380 (1) Every one who, by deceit, falsehood or other fraudulent means, whether or not it is a false pretence within the meaning of this Act, defrauds the public or any person, whether ascertained or not, of any property, money or valuable security or any service,

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to a term of imprisonment not exceeding fourteen years, where the subject-matter of the offence is a testamentary instrument or the value of the subject-matter of the offence exceeds five thousand dollars; or

(b) is guilty

(i) of an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or

(ii) of an offence punishable on summary conviction,

where the value of the subject-matter of the offence does not exceed five thousand dollars.
Whether the insurance company considers this important enough to press charges is another matter. It may be too minor an issue as far as they are concerned.

A case could be made, theoretically. Who knows what a judge or jury would ultimately decide though.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8737
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 129 times

Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by xouper » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:50 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:14 pm
It's pretty neat what you can Google these days.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts ... n-380.html
Fraud

380 (1) Every one who, by deceit, falsehood or other fraudulent means, whether or not it is a false pretence within the meaning of this Act, defrauds the public or any person, whether ascertained or not, of any property, money or valuable security or any service,
Whether the insurance company considers this important enough to press charges is another matter. It may be too minor an issue as far as they are concerned.

A case could be made, theoretically. Who knows what a judge or jury would ultimately decide though.
Thanks for finding that. I assumed that was already the case in Canada.

That does not answer my previous question: How do you propose to establish that "David" defrauded anyone* when the laws regarding gender identity allow him to do exactly what he did? How do you propose to show that taking advantage of a legal loophole is fraudulent under the law? Where in Canadian law does it say that someone is not allowed to formally declare female gender identity on government documents while at the same time also informally declare male biological identity?


___________________________________
* Footnote: "by deceit, falsehood or other fraudulent means, whether or not it is a false pretence within the meaning of this Act"

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 70759
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 3163 times
Been thanked: 1169 times

Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:04 pm

A bit of googling and I find the folks angriest about this seem to be organized trans people.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
Anaxagoras
Posts: 21453
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am
Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan
Has thanked: 1386 times
Been thanked: 1174 times

Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:29 pm

You know though, that if insurance companies charged higher rates to women, even if it were statistically justified because they had higher rates of accidents, that there would be a huge outcry that this is unfair. But most people seem to accept discriminatory pricing that favors women.

Here in Japan, there's a restaurant nearby that has an "all you can eat" course as well as and "all you can drink" option. Of course, the price differs for men and women.

I don't personally see this as unfair, because I know I can eat more and drink more than most women. Besides, people self-select whether to eat at and all-you-can eat or drink place. If you don't have a large appetite, you'll probably choose a different place, or choose a different option.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22053
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 388 times

Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by gnome » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:09 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:49 pm
gnome wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:29 pm
For example, AIDS researchers quickly learned to stop asking a person's sexual orientation and instead surveyed whether the person had same sex encounters.
In the most recent permutation of politically driven classification, "orientation" isn't even a thing any more.

I forget exactly what bad thing that word is supposed to imply about gay people.
Do you mean, in the most recent blog written by some rando on Huffpo or something?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 70759
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 3163 times
Been thanked: 1169 times

Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:52 pm

gnome wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:09 pm
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:49 pm
gnome wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:29 pm
For example, AIDS researchers quickly learned to stop asking a person's sexual orientation and instead surveyed whether the person had same sex encounters.
In the most recent permutation of politically driven classification, "orientation" isn't even a thing any more.

I forget exactly what bad thing that word is supposed to imply about gay people.
Do you mean, in the most recent blog written by some rando on Huffpo or something?
Hard to tell what is "mainstream" any more, but I have the impression the kool kidz don't care for that terminology.

There's some sort of dynamic tension between homosexuals ("born that way" or very early development) and pomosexuals (fuck everything at least in theory and change gender on a whim).

Lost in the shuffle are the unfortunates who used to be termed "transsexuals".
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22053
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 388 times

Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by gnome » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:27 pm

I think the best is to encourage thinking out of the box, but also not to take it that seriously either. It's too complicated to have any kind of authoritative point of view on.

There are all kinds of people that have no interest in behaving in the same patterns as most other people. There are infinite combinations of appearance, dress, behavior, identity, original anatomy, surgically changed anatomy, and sexual preference--some like to find patterns and give them names that correspond to people's familiar experiences of male and female. Some people want to adopt some part of a familiar experience but subvert some of the expectations. Some don't want to fit a pattern at all or have their particular combination named.

My proposal: Live and let live. Try not to make a big deal about it yourself. It seems like the most common fear is to be considered antagonistic if you don't guess someone's combination correctly. Honestly, all the unusual combinations is good news for that fear--it's increasingly pointless to guess.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2