Separate thread for guys who have a (purely ideological metaphoric of course) hard on for trans women.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: Separate thread for guys who have a (purely ideological metaphoric of course) hard on for trans women.

Post by ed » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:58 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:03 pm
Grammatron wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:30 pm
I don't agree with ed but to play this game for a moment:

Why can't an individual male identify as a female yet forgo all the hormones and even fashion?
Go ahead, but if you do it in bad faith for pecuniary gain it would be a good idea to shop for lawyers in advance because all of this is the sort of pop-culture legal loophole bullshit that falls flat in the real world.

Just because in this case whether one is falsifying one's gender/whatever should be a totally subjective test, that just makes proving fraud harder, not impossible.
If you even dare to raise the question you are a transphobe and worse. OK mr prosecutor, lets see how you like being yelled at in restaurants and having a web site devoted to your sexism/racism/islamophobia. And the judge and anyone involved in the case.

And in the new thru the looking glass world of progressive "thought" gender, per se is not something that anyone other than the individual can even comment upon.

Sorry, progressives have made this bulletproof. Though I have probably triggered some of them with that expression.
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Re: Separate thread for guys who have a (purely ideological metaphoric of course) hard on for trans women.

Post by xouper » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:01 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:40 pm
It would be the same as lying about an address on a drivers license to induce an insurance company to charge a lower rate because they think you are in a lower crime area. Or lying about age, or anything else. No special law.

Just that gender identification is harder to prove because it is almost totally subjective, but repeatedly confessing that you are lying about it does help the prosecution quite a bit.
In this particular case, "David" did not confess he was lying. He merely explained his motive for identifying as a female. In order to show he lied, you would have to show two things: 1) he was not allowed to use that reason for his gender identification, and 2) he knew he was not allowed to do that and did it anyway. So far, you have not shown either one.

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Re: Separate thread for guys who have a (purely ideological metaphoric of course) hard on for trans women.

Post by RCC: Act II » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:07 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:47 pm
RCC: Act II wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:40 pm
It would be the same as lying about an address on a drivers license to induce an insurance company to charge a lower rate because they think you are in a lower crime area. Or lying about age, or anything else. No special law.

Just that gender identification is harder to prove because it is almost totally subjective, but repeatedly confessing that you are lying about it does help the prosecution quite a bit.
Absence of press release I don't see how one proves fraud. But I also don't see a noticeable number of people doing all this paperwork to save a few bucks. This scenario is incredibly rare IMO.
Pretty much.

The problem is that a lot of people seem to want to impute some radical level of naivety to the legal system that just doesn't exist. Reasonable doubt does not mean all doubt, and circumstantial evidence can be enough to support a conviction.

People who think they can game the system in these sorts of ways are almost never anywhere near as clever as they think they are.

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Re: Separate thread for guys who have a (purely ideological metaphoric of course) hard on for trans women.

Post by xouper » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:26 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:07 pm
The problem is that a lot of people seem to want to impute some radical level of naivety to the legal system that just doesn't exist.
A lot of people? I must have missed that. Who are those people? Were these "lot of people" in the news somewhere?

What I did, in that other thread, was to expose a simple loophole in the law. I did not characterize it as some "some radical level of naivety to the legal system".

RCC: Act II wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:07 pm
People who think they can game the system in these sorts of ways are almost never anywhere near as clever as they think they are.
Please explain why you think "David" is not anywhere near as clever as he thinks he is.

Do you say the same thing about people who game the tax laws for financial advantage? Surely you are not saying they are all lying or committing fraud even if they admit they are taking advantage of loopholes (gaming the system).

How is gaming the laws for gender identity any different than gaming the tax laws?

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Re: Separate thread for guys who have a (purely ideological metaphoric of course) hard on for trans women.

Post by RCC: Act II » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:30 pm

xouper wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:01 pm
RCC: Act II wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:40 pm
It would be the same as lying about an address on a drivers license to induce an insurance company to charge a lower rate because they think you are in a lower crime area. Or lying about age, or anything else. No special law.

Just that gender identification is harder to prove because it is almost totally subjective, but repeatedly confessing that you are lying about it does help the prosecution quite a bit.
In this particular case, "David" did not confess he was lying. He merely explained his motive for identifying as a female. In order to show he lied, you would have to show two things: 1) he was not allowed to use that reason for his gender identification, and 2) he knew he was not allowed to do that and did it anyway. So far, you have not shown either one.


"I'm a man, 100 per cent" probably does it as far as proving a case of fraud. The "money as a legitimate grounds to claim gender identity" argument you seem to be making is like trying to solve the problem of a boat taking on water by poking holes in the bottom of a boat so the water leaks out.

You keep on about proof as if it were geometric or something. In law, it isn't. It just means there is evidence that meets the appropriate burden.

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Re: Separate thread for guys who have a (purely ideological metaphoric of course) hard on for trans women.

Post by RCC: Act II » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:40 pm

xouper wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:26 pm
RCC: Act II wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:07 pm
The problem is that a lot of people seem to want to impute some radical level of naivety to the legal system that just doesn't exist.
A lot of people? I must have missed that. Who are those people? Were these "lot of people" in the news somewhere?


Really? I spent better than a decade in appellate practice listening to people explain to me via contrived legal and factual arguments why they shouldn't be in prison. Even not counting half the people that make galacticbrain arguments on the internet, and yes, including you right now in this thread, that is a lot.

What I did, in that other thread, was to expose a simple loophole in the law. I did not characterize it as some "some radical level of naivety to the legal system".
Seeing that as an effective loophole under these facts requires that naivety. Had he kept his mouth shut and took the line that he merely thinks he has a right to identify as a female, then maybe. But claiming to be 100% male and that he's doing it for money? No. That requires the system to be run by morons.



How is gaming the laws for gender identity any different than gaming the tax laws?
Lying about one's income is not gaming the tax laws the same as lying about one's gender is not "finding a loophole."

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Re: Separate thread for guys who have a (purely ideological metaphoric of course) hard on for trans women.

Post by xouper » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:05 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:40 pm
xouper wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:26 pm
RCC: Act II wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:07 pm
The problem is that a lot of people seem to want to impute some radical level of naivety to the legal system that just doesn't exist.
A lot of people? I must have missed that. Who are those people? Were these "lot of people" in the news somewhere?


Really? I spent better than a decade in appellate practice listening to people explain to me via contrived legal and factual arguments why they shouldn't be in prison.
OK, thanks for clarifying who you were referring to.

RCC: Act II wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:40 pm
. . . and yes, including you right now in this thread, that is a lot.
That is factually incorrect. That is a false characterization of my position in this conversation.

RCC: Act II wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:40 pm
xouper wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:26 pm
What I did, in that other thread, was to expose a simple loophole in the law. I did not characterize it as some "some radical level of naivety to the legal system".
Seeing that as an effective loophole under these facts requires that naivety.
No it doesn't. It only takes the simple skill of observing the obvious.

RCC: Act II wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:40 pm
xouper wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:26 pm
How is gaming the laws for gender identity any different than gaming the tax laws?
Lying about one's income is not gaming the tax laws the same as lying about one's gender is not "finding a loophole."
Nice straw man there. I did not say (or even imply) that lying about income is valid way to game the tax laws. I assume you know full well there are many ways to game the tax laws (using loopholes) that are perfectly legal without lying or committing fraud.

You are the one claiming it is illegal the way "David" gamed the gender identity laws, but you haven't offered a convincing argument for that claim.

You have not shown that "David" lied about anything. All you have shown is that you don't like that he can claim to be both female and male depending on the circumstances. You have not shown that doing that is prohibited under Canadian law.

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Re: Separate thread for guys who have a (purely ideological metaphoric of course) hard on for trans women.

Post by xouper » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:39 pm

Quoting the opening post:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:26 pm
From that other thread, . . .
Oh great, now we have two threads arguing about the same damn thing. :nutkick:

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Re: Separate thread for guys who have a (purely ideological metaphoric of course) hard on for trans women.

Post by gnome » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:45 pm

Someone call Darat!
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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