Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by WildCat » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:45 am

"Freedom of the press" in the 1A is not a reference to institutional news media. It's a literal reference to a printing press, and a reporter for the New York Post has no more freedom of the press than anyone else under the US Constitution. Most reporters are arrogant enough to believe they have more Constitutional rights than non-reporters, when in fact they don't.
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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:54 am

xouper wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:18 am
Anaxagoras wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:55 pm
By the way, and I mean this seriously, my objection to Alex Jones has nothing to do with where he is on the political spectrum. Jones is trying to frame this as political censorship. I object to Infowars because they straight up lie.
So does CNN, MSNBC, and the New York Times. But that is not a valid reason to censor them.

And yes, it is political censorship.
If you think these things are comparable, you're just wrong. Infowars promotes conspiracy theories like 9/11 was an inside job, Sandy Hook and the Boston bombing were "false flag attacks," fluoride in tap water is there for some nefarious purpose, and so on. While these mainstream media companies may sometimes get facts wrong, they don't fabricate things or promote lunatic conspiracy theories as a matter of policy.
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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by Grammatron » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:08 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:54 am
xouper wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:18 am
Anaxagoras wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:55 pm
By the way, and I mean this seriously, my objection to Alex Jones has nothing to do with where he is on the political spectrum. Jones is trying to frame this as political censorship. I object to Infowars because they straight up lie.
So does CNN, MSNBC, and the New York Times. But that is not a valid reason to censor them.

And yes, it is political censorship.
If you think these things are comparable, you're just wrong. Infowars promotes conspiracy theories like 9/11 was an inside job, Sandy Hook and the Boston bombing were "false flag attacks," fluoride in tap water is there for some nefarious purpose, and so on. While these mainstream media companies may sometimes get facts wrong, they don't fabricate things or promote lunatic conspiracy theories as a matter of policy.
The problem is, while you are right that Infowars promotes and thrives on conspiracy theories and fringe nutcases, the NYT Op-Ed section is not that far off. Neither are CNN and MSNBC programs that are not directly news.

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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by xouper » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:57 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:54 am
xouper wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:18 am
Anaxagoras wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:55 pm
By the way, and I mean this seriously, my objection to Alex Jones has nothing to do with where he is on the political spectrum. Jones is trying to frame this as political censorship. I object to Infowars because they straight up lie.
So does CNN, MSNBC, and the New York Times. But that is not a valid reason to censor them.

And yes, it is political censorship.
If you think these things are comparable, you're just wrong. Infowars promotes conspiracy theories like 9/11 was an inside job, Sandy Hook and the Boston bombing were "false flag attacks," fluoride in tap water is there for some nefarious purpose, and so on. While these mainstream media companies may sometimes get facts wrong, they don't fabricate things or promote lunatic conspiracy theories as a matter of policy.
You have moved the goalposts revised your original objection. You said Jones should be censored for lying, and that's what I responded to, so it is not fair to complain that I did not address your new goalposts objections.

If Jones should be censored for lying, as you originally complained, then so should CNN, MSNBC, the NYT, and others. My point is not invalidated just because you now want to revise the terms of your objections.

And yes, those others have been caught fabricating stories. Maybe not as extreme as Jones, but still "straight up lies", which is what you originally objected to.

I am not defending Jones. I don't like what he does. I am defending the right of political speech.

But I also don't like double standards.

Once you advocate censoring your opponent's political speech, you have begun the trip down the slippery slope where the line keeps getting redrawn to suit the objection du jour. This is a dangerous game the liberals are playing, and they won't like it when the shoe is on the other foot.

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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:17 am

xouper wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:57 am
And yes, those others have been caught fabricating stories. Maybe not as extreme as Jones, but still "straight up lies", which is what you originally objected to.
I am aware of a few isolated cases of "fabrication" (and the reporter responsible was fired when it was discovered, and corrections were issued).

Can you cite any examples where there was not only "fabrication" but the media didn't correct it even after it was discovered?
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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by xouper » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:12 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:17 am
xouper wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:57 am
And yes, those others have been caught fabricating stories. Maybe not as extreme as Jones, but still "straight up lies", which is what you originally objected to.
I am aware of a few isolated cases of "fabrication" (and the reporter responsible was fired when it was discovered, and corrections were issued).

Can you cite any examples where there was not only "fabrication" but the media didn't correct it even after it was discovered?
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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:00 am

xouper wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:12 am
Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:17 am
xouper wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:57 am
And yes, those others have been caught fabricating stories. Maybe not as extreme as Jones, but still "straight up lies", which is what you originally objected to.
I am aware of a few isolated cases of "fabrication" (and the reporter responsible was fired when it was discovered, and corrections were issued).

Can you cite any examples where there was not only "fabrication" but the media didn't correct it even after it was discovered?
Image
So you got nothing.
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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by Grammatron » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:37 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:54 am
While these mainstream media companies may sometimes get facts wrong, they don't fabricate things or promote lunatic conspiracy theories as a matter of policy.
When it comes to Trump they do.

https://www.investors.com/politics/colu ... s-of-2017/

Let's check some out:
"It really does now look like President Donald J. Trump, and markets are plunging. When might we expect them to recover? A first-pass answer is never… So we are very probably looking at a global recession, with no end in sight." Paul Krugman of the New York Times the day after the election.

"Trump would likely cause the stock market to crash and plunge the world into recession." Simon Johnson, MIT economics professor, in The New York Times, November 2016.

"Citigroup: A Trump Victory in November Could Cause a Global Recession", Bloomberg Financial News headline, August 2016

"I have never seen an election in which the markets have so strong of a view as to what was good and bad about the outcome. And what you saw was the markets rallying yesterday because of the FBI thing on Sunday. And the reason I mention this particularly is if the likely event happens and Trump wins you will see a market crash of historic proportions, I think…The markets are terrified of him." Steve Rattner, MSNBC economics guru and former Obama Car Czar, October, 2016.

"A President Trump Could Destroy the World Economy", headline of Washington Post editorial, October 2016.
Do those seem sane and sober to you?

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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by xouper » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:50 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:00 am
So you got nothing.
Logic fail. That's not a valid conclusion from my reply. Just because I didn't answer your question doesn't mean I don't have an answer.

So far in this thread, every time I scored a point against your objection, you moved the goalposts and (unfairly) accused me of not having refuted the new objection. Sorry, but I'm not interested in having this kind of conversation with someone who appears to be playing in bad faith.

My point stands, your defense of censorship is predicated on a double standard. I might take it more seriously if you applied the same standards to all sides. But you don't. Instead, you dissemble. Sorry, but I'm not interested in playing your game.

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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:47 am

xouper wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:50 am
Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:00 am
So you got nothing.
Logic fail. That's not a valid conclusion from my reply. Just because I didn't answer your question doesn't mean I don't have an answer.

So far in this thread, every time I scored a point against your objection, you moved the goalposts and (unfairly) accused me of not having refuted the new objection. Sorry, but I'm not interested in having this kind of conversation with someone who appears to be playing in bad faith.

My point stands, your defense of censorship is predicated on a double standard. I might take it more seriously if you applied the same standards to all sides. But you don't. Instead, you dissemble. Sorry, but I'm not interested in playing your game.
Uh, no. I think you're the one playing a game here. There is no goalpost moving. You can't just compare Infowars with the New York Times and say that they are both equally dishonest. You're trying too hard to find a fallacy.

No news outlet is perfect, but there is a gigantic difference between Alex Jones and mainstream journalism.
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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by Doctor X » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:10 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:17 am
Can you cite any examples where there was not only "fabrication" but the media didn't correct it even after it was discovered?
ESPN still has not corrected the made-up "Deflategate" readings.

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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by Skeeve » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:35 am

The Ballad of Alex Jones...(the gay-frog shuffle)



A fairly short (~ 10 minutes) and biased (IMHO) video from Black Pigeon Speaks.

He makes a point, how these "private companies" (the three that just de-platformed Alex Jones), had help from the government (via tax breaks, grants etc. - courtesy of taxpayers)

Full disclosure: I don't didn't watch Alex Jones, and was not a fan.
Then Skank Of America could start in...

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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by Skeeve » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:47 am

And Stefan Molyneux weighs in too.
(mercifully short ~13 minutes - must have been scripted...)

Then Skank Of America could start in...

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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by ed » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:04 pm

An interesting line of thought that I have come across is this:
Facebook, Google etc position themselves as "platforms" for the transmission of information. That is to say, they simply do not publish, edit or otherwise alter the flow. Clearly, if they censor, they become publishers and that, I understand, reduces the legal protections they have against suits involving defamation and the like.

Where's the popcorn.
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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:24 pm

Oh lord.

Poor fucking Alex. Fucking martyr for our freedumbs.
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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:26 pm

ed wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:04 pm
An interesting line of thought that I have come across is this:
Facebook, Google etc position themselves as "platforms" for the transmission of information. That is to say, they simply do not publish, edit or otherwise alter the flow. Clearly, if they censor, they become publishers and that, I understand, reduces the legal protections they have against suits involving defamation and the like.

Where's the popcorn.
Of course they always have exercised control from the beginning. That's why you don't see nudity or porn on YouTube or Facebook.
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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by RCC: Act II » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:35 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:47 am

Uh, no. I think you're the one playing a game here. There is no goalpost moving. You can't just compare Infowars with the New York Times and say that they are both equally dishonest. You're trying too hard to find a fallacy.

No news outlet is perfect, but there is a gigantic difference between Alex Jones and mainstream journalism.
Plus he claimed in court that he was a performance artist in an attempt to not have his foul bullshit used against him in a custody battle, so there is another difference.

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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:44 pm

I will stipulate he really is a performance artist (who are we to say what is an "artist").

The point is, that's still no excuse.

As George Orwell at different times wrote of Salvador Dali and Ezra Pound, one has the right to expect ordinary human decency even from an artist.
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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by WildCat » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:48 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:24 pm
Oh lord.

Poor fucking (insert name of rapist murderer who was lynched). Fucking martyr for our freedumbs.
Fixed.
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Re: Chris murphy comes out for repealing the first amendment

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:49 pm

But I would say The New York Times is much worse than Alex Jones.

Nobody with any sense ever cared about what Alex Jones says, and plenty of better than average informed people never even heard of him before the mainstream story about the social media bannings.

Whereas The New York Times is burning down its long standing reputation for reliability and respectability to spread lies and hatred.
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