An interesting article on immigration policy from the left

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An interesting article on immigration policy from the left

Post by gnome » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:08 pm

Slate: Why “Abolish ICE” Is Not the Answer
Isaac Chotiner wrote: Immigration enforcement, whether we like it or not, is a reality. I think where we can make a difference is in how it is conducted. That’s not an easy thing to do, but it is a vital thing to do. If the debate is whether there should be immigration enforcement, then I think we give the other side a really powerful tool to win hearts and minds. I think that’s a mistake. Look, abolishing ICE sounds very close to saying, “Well maybe we don’t need a border. Maybe we don’t need immigration enforcement.”

I don’t believe that’s where the country is, and I don’t believe we can be successful in protecting people if that’s the argument that we’re making. If we want to protect immigrants, if we want to protect our values, if we want to have an immigration system that functions and is rational, then I think we need to be willing to address how do we think immigration enforcement should be conducted, what’s a way to do that, that actually values people’s lives and their civil rights. The abolish ICE argument doesn’t touch those questions, and I think that’s a mistake.
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Re: An interesting article on immigration policy from the left

Post by Giz » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:07 am

It’s sad that a statement of the obvious is necessary. Even sadder that it might be a minority opinion amongst the dem base.

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Re: An interesting article on immigration policy from the left

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:05 am

Well, yes. "Abolish ICE" is a losing political slogan for a general election.

There was "immigration enforcement" before there was ICE, it was the INS (the former INS).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrati ... on_Service
In 2003 the administration of immigration services, including permanent residence, naturalization, asylum, and other functions, became the responsibility of the Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services (BCIS), which existed under that name only for a short time before changing to its current name, U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS). The investigative and enforcement functions of the INS (including investigations, deportation, and intelligence) were combined with the U.S. Customs investigators to create U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). The border functions of the INS, which included the Border Patrol and INS Inspectors, were combined with U.S. Customs Inspectors to create U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP).
But if you're going to run on "Abolish ICE" as a slogan, you may as well run on "open borders." It's a mug's game.
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Re: An interesting article on immigration policy from the left

Post by WildCat » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:29 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:05 am
But if you're going to run on "Abolish ICE" as a slogan, you may as well run on "open borders." It's a mug's game.
Open borders is the de facto position of the Democratic Party. Few will say they want open borders but they oppose any and all enforcement of immigration laws.
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Re: An interesting article on immigration policy from the left

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:59 am

The article is a disagreement with other Democrats about tactics, not policy goals.
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Re: An interesting article on immigration policy from the left

Post by gnome » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:58 pm

Well, if by "tactical" they mean, "it doesn't matter if you want this, it's not practical".
That seems to count as an opposition to a policy to me.
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Re: An interesting article on immigration policy from the left

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:06 am

gnome wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:58 pm
Well, if by "tactical" they mean, "it doesn't matter if you want this, it's not practical".
That seems to count as an opposition to a policy to me.
My point is there is 100% agreement about the goal, but a disagreement about how to get there.

So yes, a disagreement about policy, but of a different order than the disagreement with people who think they can conserve something.
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Re: An interesting article on immigration policy from the left

Post by gnome » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:27 am

What is the significance of "agreeing" to a goal if your argument is that it can't be done? That's not the same as disagreeing?
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Re: An interesting article on immigration policy from the left

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:40 am

gnome wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:27 am
What is the significance of "agreeing" to a goal if your argument is that it can't be done? That's not the same as disagreeing?
They are disagreeing about whether agitating to abolish ICE will achieve open borders.

They are not disagreeing that open borders are eventually achievable. That goes without saying.

It is a very nuanced piece.
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Re: An interesting article on immigration policy from the left

Post by gnome » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:46 am

I think it takes a lot of assuming to suggest that the author agrees with that point of view. How I read it is that he's selling the practical policy as important even to those that object to border enforcement in general... not claiming to be one of them, in fact pretty much saying he's not.
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Re: An interesting article on immigration policy from the left

Post by WildCat » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:38 pm

gnome wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:46 am
I think it takes a lot of assuming to suggest that the author agrees with that point of view. How I read it is that he's selling the practical policy as important even to those that object to border enforcement in general... not claiming to be one of them, in fact pretty much saying he's not.
Do you know of any Democrats at all who support enforcing immigration laws? Have you noticed that the term "illegal immigrants" has vanished from the lexicon of the Democrats and their media supporters and now it's just "immigrants" even when they're specifically talking about illegal immigrants?
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Re: An interesting article on immigration policy from the left

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:47 pm

gnome wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:46 am
I think it takes a lot of assuming to suggest that the author agrees with that point of view. How I read it is that he's selling the practical policy as important even to those that object to border enforcement in general... not claiming to be one of them, in fact pretty much saying he's not.
I am assuming the Slate piece was written by a Democrat.
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Re: An interesting article on immigration policy from the left

Post by Giz » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:05 pm

WildCat wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:38 pm
gnome wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:46 am
I think it takes a lot of assuming to suggest that the author agrees with that point of view. How I read it is that he's selling the practical policy as important even to those that object to border enforcement in general... not claiming to be one of them, in fact pretty much saying he's not.
Do you know of any Democrats at all who support enforcing immigration laws? Have you noticed that the term "illegal immigrants" has vanished from the lexicon of the Democrats and their media supporters and now it's just "immigrants" even when they're specifically talking about illegal immigrants?
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