Hell Just froze over

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ed
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Hell Just froze over

Post by ed » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:23 pm

U.S. and Canada Reach Last-Minute Deal to Salvage Nafta
The agreement came after a weekend of frantic talks to try and preserve the trade agreement that has stitched together the economies of Mexico, Canada and the United States.
The deal represents a win for President Trump, who has derided Nafta for years and threatened to pull the United States from the pact.
54m ago
Front page of the NYT, today

:D
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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by Pyrrho » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:16 pm

So they basically agreed to rename NAFTA.
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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:17 pm

So it's still not really a free trade agreement, right? :notsure:
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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by Pyrrho » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:43 pm

It's a "Fuck you, pay me!" deal just like the other one.
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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:34 pm

I believe there are some changes. Not really major changes apparently. And "free trade" is no longer in the name. And congress has to approve it.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/ ... ada-819081
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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:47 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:34 pm
I believe there are some changes. Not really major changes apparently. And "free trade" is no longer in the name. And congress has to approve it.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/ ... ada-819081
... The new pact, which is being called the U.S.-Mexico-Canada Agreement ...
An accurate name. :)
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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by gnome » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:13 pm

It is a win for Trump that he was going to back out of NAFTA and he instead agreed to NAFTA tweaked and renamed?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by Grammatron » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:26 pm

gnome wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:13 pm
It is a win for Trump that he was going to back out of NAFTA and he instead agreed to NAFTA tweaked and renamed?
Yes it is, why wouldn't it be?

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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:29 pm

gnome wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:13 pm
It is a win for Trump that he was going to back out of NAFTA and he instead agreed to NAFTA tweaked and renamed?
A win in what way?

A quick peek over by Free Republic reveals that's how they are playing it.
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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:47 pm

They got as far as a handshake agreement. That's how far Obama got with TPP. It's still not law until congress passes it. And their counterparts in Canada and Mexico. I agree that it is a "win" though. Assuming congress approves.
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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by corplinx » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:58 pm

Trudeau bent the knee. Film at 11.

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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:07 am

corplinx wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:58 pm
Trudeau bent the knee. Film at 11.
Whether it's feminists, Muslims, or Trump, Trudeau is an appeaser. 8)
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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by gnome » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:03 am

Grammatron wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:26 pm
gnome wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:13 pm
It is a win for Trump that he was going to back out of NAFTA and he instead agreed to NAFTA tweaked and renamed?
Yes it is, why wouldn't it be?
I thought he was playing to voters that actively wanted the agreement abolished, not polished up and rebranded.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by Grammatron » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:51 am

gnome wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:03 am

I thought he was playing to voters that actively wanted the agreement abolished, not polished up and rebranded.
He campaigned on new deal or no deal:
"I'm going to tell our NAFTA partners that I intend to immediately renegotiate the terms of that agreement to get a better deal for our workers,” Trump said during remarks at an aluminum facility in Monessen, Pa., near Pittsburgh.

"And I don't mean just a little bit better, I mean a lot better," he said.

"If they do not agree to a renegotiation, then I will submit notice under Article 2205 of the NAFTA agreement that America intends to withdraw from the deal.”

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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:10 am

gnome wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:03 am
Grammatron wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:26 pm
gnome wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:13 pm
It is a win for Trump that he was going to back out of NAFTA and he instead agreed to NAFTA tweaked and renamed?
Yes it is, why wouldn't it be?
I thought he was playing to voters that actively wanted the agreement abolished, not polished up and rebranded.
So did I, but I never assumed he really meant it.
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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by gnome » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:55 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:51 am
gnome wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:03 am

I thought he was playing to voters that actively wanted the agreement abolished, not polished up and rebranded.
He campaigned on new deal or no deal:
"I'm going to tell our NAFTA partners that I intend to immediately renegotiate the terms of that agreement to get a better deal for our workers,” Trump said during remarks at an aluminum facility in Monessen, Pa., near Pittsburgh.

"And I don't mean just a little bit better, I mean a lot better," he said.

"If they do not agree to a renegotiation, then I will submit notice under Article 2205 of the NAFTA agreement that America intends to withdraw from the deal.”
Point. Now, (blatant goalpost move) is it a lot better?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:06 pm

The implication during the campaign was no more free trade area, though not necessarily zero treaties.

No one with any sense took it seriously, including many people who voted for him.
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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by gnome » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:09 pm

It was just some blather to dupe some useful loonies onto the bandwagon, I take it?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:26 pm

gnome wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:09 pm
It was just some blather to dupe some useful loonies onto the bandwagon, I take it?
Not necessarily loonies.

And it was inevitable that there would be some sort of renegotiation of NAFTA. It might be argued that Hillary would have done it better, but not that she would leave the previous treaty carved in stone.
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Re: Hell Just froze over

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:30 pm

I heard some analysis about this deal today. Apparently for car makers who don't comply with the new rules, the tariffs are 2.5% So, I'm not sure how much effect this will really have in practice. If the cost of opening a plant in America or switching production from one to another is greater than 2.5% of the final price of the car, it's probably simpler to just pay the 2.5% tariff. It'll raise prices for consumers a little bit, but not by a shocking amount, and I doubt it's going to be a huge incentive to "bring jobs back home" if the tariff is so low. In some edge cases it could even have the opposite effect. If you're going to be paying the tariff anyway, figure out other ways to lower costs.
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