Jamal Khashoggi

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by xouper » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:40 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:13 am
At a time like this you can think of a million excuses to minimize it or look the other way, but that's what allows stuff like this to continue. If we just ignore it or shrug our shoulders, then they get away with it. And it means it will happen again.
I get what you are saying and in principle I agree. Allow me to respond with two points:

2. As a practical matter, it will happen again regardless what I do, so don't bother trying to guilt me on that point.

1. I am not trying to excuse anything, nor to minimize anything, nor am I trying to ignore it or look the other way. I am simply baffled by the sudden interest in how certain other countries abuse civil rights. Fact: Saudi Arabia has a long history of killing journalists. So have certain other countries. No one has yet given a satisfactory explanation why this case is more "special" than all the others.

3. When I step back and ponder the bigger picture, what I see in this particular case appears to be selective and hypocritical outrage, and I have yet to see anyone explain (in a reasonable and civil manner) why my perception is mistaken. I am not saying the outrage is not warranted, I am simply asking where was this outrage for other similar incidents? Why now, all of a sudden? What makes this case more significant than all the others? So far, no one here has given a satisfactory answer to that and the media reports are not much help either. I am certainly willing to consider any and all reasonable and coherent discourse on the relevant issues, especially as it compares with the bigger picture, assuming anyone here is willing to actually discuss the matter in a sincere and serious way.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by corplinx » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:27 am

Anax, you only care when the murderer is Arab apparently. I won't be lectured by an assasination apologist. Fuck off.

This story gets what I call "undue attention" over the every day atrocities.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:40 am

xouper wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:40 am
Anaxagoras wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:13 am
At a time like this you can think of a million excuses to minimize it or look the other way, but that's what allows stuff like this to continue. If we just ignore it or shrug our shoulders, then they get away with it. And it means it will happen again.
I get what you are saying and in principle I agree. Allow me to respond with two points:

2. As a practical matter, it will happen again regardless what I do, so don't bother trying to guilt me on that point.

1. I am not trying to excuse anything, nor to minimize anything, nor am I trying to ignore it or look the other way. I am simply baffled by the sudden interest in how certain other countries abuse civil rights. Fact: Saudi Arabia has a long history of killing journalists. So have certain other countries. No one has yet given a satisfactory explanation why this case is more "special" than all the others.

3. When I step back and ponder the bigger picture, what I see in this particular case appears to be selective and hypocritical outrage, and I have yet to see anyone explain (in a reasonable and civil manner) why my perception is mistaken. I am not saying the outrage is not warranted, I am simply asking where was this outrage for other similar incidents? Why now, all of a sudden? What makes this case more significant than all the others? So far, no one here has given a satisfactory answer to that and the media reports are not much help either. I am certainly willing to consider any and all reasonable and coherent discourse on the relevant issues, especially as it compares with the bigger picture, assuming anyone here is willing to actually discuss the matter in a sincere and serious way.
You might have missed the second paragraph in my post above because I edited it in after posting it, so apologies for repeating myself. Here's that second paragraph:

What we have here is an opportunity to hold someone who abused their power accountable, even if not to the extent he truly deserves. Just because others have gotten away with similar abuses of power in the past, is not a very good reason to look the other way now. This sort of thing will continue until the costs of doing it become too high.

As to your point "2.": I realize that what you do or I do as an individual matters very little in "the bigger picture". This is more about what the government of the United States and other governments around the world do about it. If the general reaction is to wag some fingers and then go back to whatever we were all doing before without any real sanctions, then Saudi Arabia will have effectively gotten away with murder. But the governments of the world in this moment when the whole world's attention is focused have a limited-time opportunity to hold Saudi Arabia accountable for it's actions. The world's attention will not stay focused on this for very long though. Other, newer news stories will sooner or later push it aside, and if nothing has been done by then, the urgency to do anything about it is likely to fade away over time. At times like this, American leadership is crucial. Europe too, to a slightly lesser extent. Japan isn't going to take the lead in something like this, let's be honest. But they might follow the American and Europeans' lead.

As to your points "1." and "3." which are sort of different aspects of the same thing, so I will respond to them as one point:

Human beings after all have limited attention spans and limited capacity for outrage. And we all tend to be hypocrites. So while perhaps other things in the past deserved more attention, it does little good to dwell on that or allow it to distract us. There's a rhetorical strategy called "whataboutism" that comes into play here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument,[1][2][3] which in the United States is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.[4][5][6] When criticisms were leveled at the Soviet Union during the Cold War, the Soviet response would often be "What about..." followed by an event in the Western world.[7][8][9]

The term "whataboutery" has been used in Britain and Ireland since the period of the Troubles (conflict) in Northern Ireland.[10][11][12] Lexicographers date the first appearance of the variant whataboutism to the 1990s[1][10] or 1970s,[13] while other historians state that during the Cold War, Western officials referred to the Soviet propaganda strategy by that term.[7][14] The tactic saw a resurgence in post-Soviet Russia, relating to human rights violations committed by, and criticisms of, the Russian government.[7][15][16] The technique received new attention during Russia's 2014 annexation of Crimea and military intervention in Ukraine.[17][18] Usage of the tactic extended to Russian President Vladimir Putin and his spokesman, Dmitry Peskov.[19][20][21]

The Guardian deemed whataboutism, as used in Russia, "practically a national ideology".[22] Journalist Julia Ioffe wrote that "Anyone who has ever studied the Soviet Union" was aware of the technique, citing the Soviet rejoinder to criticism, And you are lynching Negroes, as a "classic" example of the tactic.[23] Writing for Bloomberg News, Leonid Bershidsky called whataboutism a "Russian tradition",[24] while The New Yorker described the technique as "a strategy of false moral equivalences".[25] Jill Dougherty called whataboutism a "sacred Russian tactic",[26][27] and compared it to the pot calling the kettle black.[28]
I would say that "Why the selective outrage? Isn't that hypocritical? Why weren't you outraged by this, that and the other thing?" sounds a lot like "whataboutism". It's a red herring designed to get us sidetracked into endless arguments about anything other than the case at hand, which is the murder of Jamal Kashoggi and the role of the Saudi Government in said murder. I don't have the time or attention to spare arguing over various other moral equivalencies.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by xouper » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:48 am

I don’t need to be lectured about whataboutism, but it’s good to know we both know about it. It was not my intent to make that argument, although in hindsight I can see how my comments might be mistaken for whataboutism. I am not arguing the outrage about Khashoggi is not valid, thus I am not making a whataboutism fallacy.

My question has still not been answered. What is so special about this particular case? Why now? My guess (and that of others), which has not yet been addressed, is that this case is being hyped in the media because of anti-trumpism (and how it can be used against Trump somehow) and not just because this particular murder is despicable on its own merits. If this guess is correct then the accusation of hypocrisy is indeed valid and is not the fallacy of whataboutism.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by shuize » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:15 am

I'm so old, I can remember when an American ambassador was murdered in one of our own consulates and received less media coverage than this guy.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:47 am

xouper wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:48 am
I don’t need to be lectured about whataboutism, but it’s good to know we both know about it.
Sorry if I come across as "lecturing". That isn't really my intent, I'm just trying to explain my position.
My question has still not been answered. What is so special about this particular case? Why now?
Again, I'll try my best: maybe it isn't so special, but what it is is an opportunity for the international community to hold someone responsible for a heinous abuse of power. We always have imperfect information. We aren't omniscient, but maybe what makes this case special is the amount of evidence available, which makes it near impossible for them to credibly or even plausibly deny their own culpability.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:35 pm

Just meaningless collateral damage, unless we stop trading with and supporting the military of Saudi Arabia.

Not going to happen.

Therefore, the only real story worth analyzing is the media reaction. Or else there is no real story so forget it.

We're only policemen of the world where some moneyed interest requires it.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by ed » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:58 pm

I think that "Whataboutism" has a flip side and that is "Whyisthisdifferentism". It isn't that I, for one, am demanding a history of outrage over similar incidents, I am asking why this one rises above the others that we have, corporately, decided are nothing burgers.

I suspect that it is because the deceased was an employee of a US media outlet. And we are, you know, special.

But, then again, so was Daniel Perl.

Could it be that the perp in the current case is an ally of the US and in the case of Perl was an oppressed minority so that a break was necessary?

I am noting a tendency to accept anything that is against the US or US allies (or Trump for that matter) but if you have enormities committed by enemies of the US outrage is misplaced.

For example, Hillary and/or her minions definitively colluded with Russians to destroy Trump. Is there any pearl clutching about that? Has anyone even made a point of it in the MSM?


That seem to be the case?
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by xouper » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:06 pm

I'd like to follow up on this part:
Anaxagoras wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:40 am
Human beings after all have limited attention spans and limited capacity for outrage. And we all tend to be hypocrites. So while perhaps other things in the past deserved more attention, it does little good to dwell on that or allow it to distract us.
That's an interesting point.

But I hadn't fully processed it until a few minutes ago when I came across the following editorial that addresses that exact point.

(Caveat: If you don't like what I've posted so far in this thread, you will certainly not like what this guy has to say. I don't agree with everything he says, and only quoted a few of the more tasty morsels. I even omitted the clickbait title.)

On October 22, 2018 , Kurt Schlichter wrote:
This may shock you, but I care less that a bunch of foreign barbarians killed a foreign barbarian supporter in a foreign country than I do about illegal alien foreign barbarians here in America killing Americans.

A lot less.

. . . I reject the elite’s fussy paradigm of Things That We Must Pretend Matter.

I will stubbornly exercise my right not to get exercised over yet another outrage ginned up by people who are determined to manipulate me.

. . . In the current convulsion, our moral and intellectual betters who make up our glorious elite are in a fake frenzy because Third World thugs are acting like Third World thugs.

That Khashoggi guy was a journalist, damnit!

Journalists are special!

He wrote for the Washington Post, so he matters…not like that Kate Steinle girl, who was just some American who got in the way of a bullet fired by an illegal alien who the elite ensured was not deported.

. . . I’m not pro-chopping up political opponents, which I only feel the need to state because some willfully obtuse lib jerk is going to claim my refusal to freak out over bad people acting exactly like bad people act means I support chopping up political opponents.

Chopping up political opponents is generally a bad thing, though I will not hold my breath waiting for the libs to, for example, cancel their holidays in Havana because the Castro clan has butchered tens of thousands of people for preferring freedom to tyranny.

Liberal outrage, you see, is super-selective.

It only exists when there’s a related liberal policy goal it can support.

And, as the Steinle family found out, it never exists where it risks disrupting our elite’s preferred narrative.

I don’t care about the Khashoggi caper because I see no reason to join in the faux shock that foreigners are terrible, or that the Saudis are so especially terrible that we must abandon a crucial ally against Iran, which hangs more gays from a single crane every day than the Saudis have ever chopped up in their consulates.

. . . I reserve the right to decide what I care about. My caring, my choice. And I think I’ll care about things that matter to me, not things that liberal snobs care about.

I care about the interests of the United States of America more than the interests of foreign countries.

I care about Americans not being murdered here more than foreigners being murdered somewhere else.

I don’t care about the media’s peeves and whining. It brought all its misfortune upon itself with its bias, incompetence, and general scuzziness.

. . . I don’t care, because I don’t feel like caring about your pet outrages, and you can’t make me.
Looks like I'm not alone in my perceptions on this Khashoggi matter.

You said, "So while perhaps other things in the past deserved more attention, it does little good to dwell on that or allow it to distract us."

As Kurt Schlichter so eloquently explains, it's not a question about being "distracted" by other things but rather it's about having priorities regarding what matters.

I don't like that Khashoggi was murdered. Yes, that angers me. For all of three minutes, until I put it in perspective.

Because as you say, we each have only so much capacity for outrage and thus I choose to save it for things that matter more, like Kate Steinle and every other American who was murdered by an illegal alien that was protected from deportation by liberal fucktards.

So to put things into perspective, I am outraged that more people seem to be outraged at the killing of Khashoggi than the killing of Kate Steinle. She had dreams too. And she too was separated from her family. Permanently. That's not being "distracted", it's having priorities about what matters.

Still, I'm willing to be persuaded to adjust my view if anyone presents a sincere and coherent case for me to consider.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by gnome » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:10 pm

I'm not diving into the Russians/Trump/Hillary thing--that one honestly seems foggier of facts and as well, isn't a murder.

I think the big deal this time is two things (that Anax has pointed out):
- We have good evidence that the perpetrators were acting on behalf of the hosting government.
- That government is an ally of the United States.

You've made a point about how we react to US allies vs. "oppressed minorities", but possibly you're talking about US allies vs. non-state terrorists? A less assumptive construction that still highlights the difference.

My point on that is--we are already using force on non-state terrorists. What foreign policy change might prevent terrorism killings? Honestly, that's a good question but I think you can see why it's not what we're trying to reach here.

On the other hand, we can decide the status of an ally. We can influence their actions because they need us as well as we needing them. THAT is why this one stands out to me.

NOTE: Edited to remove the typo that made it look like I wanted to prevent terrorists from dying.
Last edited by gnome on Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:20 pm

Al Qaeda's origin is as the Arabian anti-Saud resistance. And Al Qaeda are enemies of the USA who it is OK to kill without asking permission.

But the Saudis do not really make distinctions between different anti-Saud activities.

Absolute monarchy, you know.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Giz » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:23 pm

gnome wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:25 am
Instead of wringing our hands as to what the media's motivations are, why not discuss its significance regardless of how the media puts it? I'm more interested in the incident than whether the media sucks. Spoiler: It does.

I think an open assassination would be a big deal. Have we blown off (as a matter of policy, not media) something like this before?
Russia seems to be doing it quite a bit.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by ed » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:28 pm

Well, I think the facts regarding the democrats and Russia are facts, not speculation. But Hillary can be excused for wearing Cossack garb because it was her turn, after all. And she can be part russian if the need arises.

Moving on.

I think that the narrative is controlled by folks to the left of most of us. I think that these people/entities/outlets reflexively side with any entity/individual who is opposed to their political opponents. Hence their weirdly schizophrenic view on Islam. Hence murders committed by the Saudis=Bad and these committed by radical Islamists=Good (or at least "understandable")

I think that throwing our relations with the House of Saud into the hazard over this murder is simply silly, ain't gonna happen.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by gnome » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:59 pm

Giz wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:23 pm
gnome wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:25 am
Instead of wringing our hands as to what the media's motivations are, why not discuss its significance regardless of how the media puts it? I'm more interested in the incident than whether the media sucks. Spoiler: It does.

I think an open assassination would be a big deal. Have we blown off (as a matter of policy, not media) something like this before?
Russia seems to be doing it quite a bit.
And I seem to recall it getting a lot of concern and even outrage, as well.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by gnome » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:01 pm

ed wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:28 pm
I think that the narrative is controlled by folks to the left of most of us. I think that these people/entities/outlets reflexively side with any entity/individual who is opposed to their political opponents. Hence their weirdly schizophrenic view on Islam. Hence murders committed by the Saudis=Bad and these committed by radical Islamists=Good (or at least "understandable")

I think that throwing our relations with the House of Saud into the hazard over this murder is simply silly, ain't gonna happen.
I don't think it's "Bad/Good".. .I think everyone thinks it's bad. The difference, as I've often argued before, is our perceived ability to affect the situation. If a friend murders someone I'm going to get a lot more upset and be more likely to act on it, if I'm in a unique position to, than I am to decide that all murders in my neighborhood are outrageous and put on my bat suit. It doesn't mean that I think my friend is worse than any other murderer.

As far as the political reality of our relationship with Saud, if it's that absolute, why not handle it the way I suggested above instead of with a pretense?
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Skeeve » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:17 pm

Audio Offers Gruesome Details of Jamal Khashoggi Killing, Turkish Official Says
ISTANBUL — Saudi agents were waiting when Jamal Khashoggi walked into their country’s consulate in Istanbul two weeks ago. Mr. Khashoggi was dead within minutes, beheaded, dismembered, his fingers severed, and within two hours the killers were gone, according to details from audio recordings described by a senior Turkish official on Wednesday.
Okay, so they still claim to have this tape...but that is all.
Mr. Trump, for his part, pushed back by questioning the Turkish claims, telling reporters on Wednesday that the United States had asked for copies of any audio or video evidence of Mr. Khashoggi’s killing that Turkish authorities may possess — “if it exists.”

“I’m not sure yet that it exists, probably does, possibly does,” Mr. Trump told reporters in the Oval Office, adding: “I’ll have a full report on that” when Mr. Pompeo returned. “That’s going to be the first question I ask.”

However: Turkey denies playing Khashoggi tape for Pompeo
Turkey did not give Secretary of State Mike Pompeo access to any of the audio of dissident and columnist Jamal Khashoggi’s last moments in a Saudi Arabian consulate, the NATO ally’s top diplomat said Friday.

“Turkey did not give anyone or any country the recording,” Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu told reporters, according to the local Hurriyet Daily News.
...
“Secretary Pompeo has neither heard a tape nor has he seen a transcript related to Jamal Khashoggi’s disappearance,” State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert confirmed in a Thursday evening statement.
So they are going to make people wait, or just perhaps, it does not exist?
...
The Turkish investigation is also ongoing. “Employees of the Saudi Arabian consulate in Istanbul are giving testimony at the Turkish prosecutor's office,” according to Daily Sabah. “As many as 15 employees were being questioned on Friday, including the consul's driver, technicians, accountants and telephone operators.”
Begs the question, why is Turkey investigating something that happened in a Saudi embassy?
Last edited by Skeeve on Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by ed » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:28 pm

Sounds like they are democrats.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Grammatron » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:10 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:35 am
Grammatron wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:15 am
We sent his body by mail and it got lost, in a fire, during a hurricane. Quite tragic really.

At the end of the day we can't switch regional allies. Who are you going to support instead, Iran?
Some would say we don't have to support either of them. It's not like if we don't support one then we have to start supporting the other.

Of course there's the nightmare scenario to think about too. If the House of Saud falls, who would replace them? A liberal democracy that respects human rights or something that would be . . . not nice? I think that fear of that latter scenario is the main reason why we support the Saudi monarchy. Still it's hard to keep supporting a regime that commits such blatant atrocities as this.
I don't want to support them either, but there's far too much trade and logistical support that moves through the Persian Gulf for us not to have interests in the region. I am not sure alternative exists.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Witness » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:45 am

Some news. From the Turkish side, so caution.
Jamal Khashoggi Death Squad Members Could Be Executed By Saudi Arabia Before Extradition, Turkey Fears

Turkish officials want the 15 suspects in the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi extradited before it's too late, reports out of the Middle East say.
https://www.inquisitr.com/5125977/jamal ... ia-turkey/
Khashoggi’s fiancée put under police protection

Turkey’s official news agency says the fiancée of Saudi writer Jamal Khashoggi has been given 24-hour police protection.

Anadolu news agency reported that the decision was made by the Istanbul governor’s office Sunday, citing an anonymous security official.
https://www.apnews.com/ea26fdceb9834c6eb8e02fc22cc90504

And this:
Saudi Arabia ‘Davos in the Desert’ Website Hacked With Picture of Jamal Khashoggi Being Executed by Crown Prince, ISIS

The website for the Future Investment Initiative, a conference in Saudi Arabia nicknamed “Davos in the Desert,” was seemingly hacked Monday, with the home page showing a mocked-up image of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi about to be executed by Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

The investment conference, which was to begin Tuesday, has been the subject of much controversy since the killing of Khashoggi in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul earlier this month. Khashoggi entered the consulate and was not seen leaving; Saudi Arabia finally acknowledged his death over the weekend. However, the kingdom claimed that his death was the work of a “rogue operation” and that the crown prince was not aware of it.

A number of high-powered CEOs and political leaders, including U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin, subsequently pulled out of the conference amid much public outrage.

Those behind the hacking of the Future Investment Initiative website suggested not only that Khashoggi’s killing had been orchestrated by the crown prince but that Saudi Arabia was a leading financier of terrorism.
https://www.newsweek.com/saudi-website- ... ce-1180829

There are also rumors that one of the thugs already got killed in a "car accident", and that some top Saudi brass tele-operated the murder via Skype.

How long till The Movie©?

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:51 am

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