Jamal Khashoggi

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:45 am

So you are saying that Trump lacks the Vision Obama and Hillary had?

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by WildCat » Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:52 pm

A Saudi national, and Muslim Brotherhood supporter, gets murdered in Turkey by Saudis. Why the fuck is this supposed to be the business of the USA?
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:43 pm

Because he was also a reporter (or something) for WaPo.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by shuize » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:20 pm

WildCat wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:52 pm
A Saudi national, and Muslim Brotherhood supporter, gets murdered in Turkey by Saudis. Why the fuck is this supposed to be the business of the USA?
Because it makes Trump look bad somehow.

And, of course, because it was Her Turn.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by gnome » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:57 pm

WildCat wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:09 pm
Trump is just publicly acknowledging the realpolitik, whereas others would dance around it and couch it in flowery diplomatic language.

And they say Trump isn't honest!
Does the "realpolitik" require pretending not to know or care what happened?
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:00 am

gnome wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:57 pm
WildCat wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:09 pm
Trump is just publicly acknowledging the realpolitik, whereas others would dance around it and couch it in flowery diplomatic language.

And they say Trump isn't honest!
Does the "realpolitik" require pretending not to know or care what happened?
You think Trump cares but pretends not to? :?
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by WildCat » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:03 am

gnome wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:57 pm
WildCat wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:09 pm
Trump is just publicly acknowledging the realpolitik, whereas others would dance around it and couch it in flowery diplomatic language.

And they say Trump isn't honest!
Does the "realpolitik" require pretending not to know or care what happened?
Uh, he says he does know what happened.

Maybe you can explain why it is the business of the USA that the Saudis murdered Khashoggi?
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by gnome » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:12 am

I think that the human rights record of a government we support is in our interests to be aware of. I also think it's in our interests, not to mention our moral duty as a superpower, to promote fundamental rights around the world--if not with our might, at least with our wealth and words.

As far as what Trump says he knows:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-st ... di-arabia/
King Salman and Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman vigorously deny any knowledge of the planning or execution of the murder of Mr. Khashoggi. Our intelligence agencies continue to assess all information, but it could very well be that the Crown Prince had knowledge of this tragic event – maybe he did and maybe he didn’t!
These are the words of someone who doesn't want to raise it as a concern, that would be happy if people accepted the denials uncritically so that it would not complicate our financial deals.

We may decide that we have need of the financial dealings, but I've got no respect for pretending there's nothing to object to--that we have no standing to even lean on them a little bit as one of their biggest partners.

To the extent that other presidents have taken the same approach--I have never praised it in them either.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by WildCat » Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:53 am

gnome wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:12 am
I think that the human rights record of a government we support is in our interests to be aware of. I also think it's in our interests, not to mention our moral duty as a superpower, to promote fundamental rights around the world--if not with our might, at least with our wealth and words.
That's nice, but completely at odds with reality. If you were serious about that you'd be advocating sanctions against the UK and the EU for their appalling rollback of freedom of speech. Not to mention China, surely you advocate all kinds of sanctions against them yes?

We're not the world police. Attempts to be the world police and meddling in the affairs of other countries was how WWI started. 35 million dead later isn't it great that those countries stood up for their principles? And if you're not willing to go to war to enforce your beliefs then you're just virtue signaling.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:29 am

We would refuse to deal with, let alone recognize, the governments of:
  • 1. Russia
    2. North Korea
    3. Turkey
    4. Detroit
    5. Israel
    6. India
    7. Pakistan
    8. Most of Africa
    9. Most of South America
    10. Canada
et cetera.

As ever, Trump could express it more . . . "Presidential."

What would happen if President Clinton/Obama ordered the murder of Some Slob and--here, take a hit on this--the Congress does not impeach him and everyone, including Rachel Maddow turns a blind eye with even St. Sean declaring, "That guy? Yeah . . . fuck him!"?

Would Britain, France, Canada, Gram's Mom, China, et cetera break diplomatic relations?

Putin rather clearly ordered the murder of people on British soil. The British have done Fuck All. Because what can they do?

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by xouper » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:01 am

In case it needs to be said, here is my personal opinion: I don't think it's right when any government assassinates it's own citizens without due process, whether it's Saudi Arabia, Russia, North Korea, Israel, Detroit, or the United States.

Nonetheless, I find it amusing* when certain people get all outraged when Saudi Arabia does it and then complain that Trump doesn't do enough about it, and yet I don't recall that those same people complained much when Obama assassinated American citizens without due process.


__________________________________________
* Footnote: And by amusing, I mean in a hypocritical way. Please note, I am not arguing that what Obama did excuses what other countries do. I am merely pointing out the double standard of those who are selectively outraged.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:41 am

He still, after all of these years, has not grasped the fact that American citizens who join and become a foreign enemy on foreign soil receive no due process.

It is not terribly complicated. It was never terribly complicated.

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"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
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Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by xouper » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:05 am

Doctor X wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:41 am
He still, after all of these years, has not grasped the fact that American citizens who join and become a foreign enemy on foreign soil receive no due process.

It is not terribly complicated. It was never terribly complicated.

--J.D.
You are correct, it's not terribly complicated.

Perhaps I need to clarify what my point is here.

Contrary to your mistaken assumption, I do indeed understand your observation that American citizens who join and become a foreign enemy on foreign soil receive no due process. I get that. I first learned that fact when I was in the US military during the Vietnam war. So you are mistaken that I have not grasped that fact. I've known about it for many decades. Furthermore, it is not my intent here to argue against that behavior by the US government. You have your opinion and I have mine and I am fine if we do not agree on this point*. That was not the primary purpose of my post.

My point here is that it is hypocritical to denounce other countries when they do the same thing as the US. If Saudi Arabia had decided that Khashoggi was a "foreign enemy" of the state and needed killing on foreign soil, then he too is not eligible for any due process, and thus Saudi Arabia is no different than the US in that regard and nothing needs to be done about it. I am fine if someone in the media does not wish to denounce the US for assassinating American citizens who have been labelled as a "foreign enemy", but then to be consistent, that same someone cannot also denounce other countries that do the same thing. That was my point, to comment about the double standard by certain people in the media.

Does that explanation help clarify what my intention is here?


____________________________________________
* Footnote: In my opinion, all American citizens deserve due process in making the determination whether they have in fact become a foreign enemy, regardless where in the world they are. It is not right that the government simply declares a citizen to be an enemy and then assassinated on foreign soil without due process. That goes against every grain of my moral fiber. However, this is not an issue I am interested in spending my time arguing. If someone has a different opinion from mine on this matter, I do not consider them a bad person. I have more important things to do than protesting the official US government position on this.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:54 am

Save they did not do what the United States did.

Even Clinton did not lure Vince Foster into an American Embassy on foreign soil, have him murdered and dismembered, then lie about it in truly Obvious Clintonian Mendacity.

So the complaint remains irrelevant and my observation Humbly, Yet MagNIfIcently, apt.

We should, therefore, never again read that particular failed complaint.

Image

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by xouper » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:17 pm

Doctor X wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:54 am
Save they did not do what the United States did.
Yes, they did.

They assassinated someone they considered an enemy.

You can quibble about the definition of "enemy", but who are you to tell them how to define it?

The method of execution is not relevant, be it a drone strike or a bone saw.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:07 pm

No, they did not.

The individual may stamp his feet as much as he wants trying to remake reality according to his imagination, but such terpsichorean tantrums neither change nor dismiss the facts repeatedly stated.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
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Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by xouper » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:16 pm

Doctor X wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:07 pm
No, they did not.

The individual may stamp his feet as much as he wants trying to remake reality according to his imagination, but such terpsichorean tantrums neither change nor dismiss the facts repeatedly stated.

--J.D.
Yes, they did.

You may stamp your feet as much as you want trying to remake reality according to your imagination, but such puerile tantrums neither change nor dismiss the facts repeatedly stated.

Fact: Khassoghi was assassinated because he was deemed by someone in the Saudi government to be an enemy of the Saudi government.

You do not get to change that fact by reframing it as something else.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by WildCat » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:26 pm

xouper wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:17 pm
Doctor X wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:54 am
Save they did not do what the United States did.
Yes, they did.

They assassinated someone they considered an enemy.

You can quibble about the definition of "enemy", but who are you to tell them how to define it?

The method of execution is not relevant, be it a drone strike or a bone saw.
The Saudis had Khashoggi in custody, something which was impossible for the targets of US drones.
Do you have questions about God?

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:28 pm

Because Obama [Boo. Hiss.--Ed.] lured the enemy combatants into American Embassies with the request to fill out forms. . . .

No, wait, none of that happened.

And the enemy combatants worked as writers and journalists rather than actually murdering people.

No, that did not happen either.

Cue the 用心棒.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:03 am

xouper wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:16 pm
Doctor X wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:07 pm
No, they did not.

The individual may stamp his feet as much as he wants trying to remake reality according to his imagination, but such terpsichorean tantrums neither change nor dismiss the facts repeatedly stated.

--J.D.
Yes, they did.

You may stamp your feet as much as you want trying to remake reality according to your imagination, but such puerile tantrums neither change nor dismiss the facts repeatedly stated.

Fact: Khassoghi was assassinated because he was deemed by someone in the Saudi government to be an enemy of the Saudi government.

You do not get to change that fact by reframing it as something else.
No. You are just being stubborn because you don't want to admit you're wrong.

The difference is as big as the difference between murdering someone in cold blood and killing someone in self-defense. And you (they) can't change facts by merely "declaring" someone an enemy.
He was a journalist who was mildly critical of the Saudi regime, not a terrorist. This would be like if Obama had Sean Hannity murdered, or Trump killed Jim Acosta because he hurt his feelings. Nobody would see that as remotely similar to killing bin Laden or al-Awlaki. The difference is between peaceful disagreement through the exercise of speech and taking up arms and actively trying to kill people. When you do the latter, then we (our elected officials) have the right and responsibility to take action to protect us.
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