Jamal Khashoggi

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:11 am

Makes them sound choppy or shuffling.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Skeeve » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:04 am

xouper wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:17 am
Anaxagoras wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:30 am
xouper wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:55 am

...(Bernie sanders sized snip)...

That is factually incorrect.

Khashoggi was also a member of the Muslim Brotherhood which is considered a terrorist organization by the Saudis and several other countries.

Anaxagoras wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:30 am
xouper wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:55 am
Furthermore, your comparison of Khashoggi to Hannity is patently ridiculous. It is a matter of record that Khashoggi has advocated the overthrow of the Saudi government.
Evidence?
Seriously?

May I suggest you do more research before you continue to argue from a position of ignorance lack of relevant knowledge. :wink:
...
Every one agrees Jamal WAS a member of the Muslim brotherhood, many folks claim that he had (over time) drifted away from it though, others say he never really left, I don't know.

Other than that, I am having a hard time finding any reference to him advocating the overthrow of the Saudi government though.

Having said that, I think the lame stream media "reaction" is way out of proportion. Would this have even been a story, if the victim had been some low-level bureaucrat?

I rather doubt it.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:55 am

Skeeve wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:04 am
xouper wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:17 am
Anaxagoras wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:30 am
xouper wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:55 am

...(Bernie sanders sized snip)...

That is factually incorrect.

Khashoggi was also a member of the Muslim Brotherhood which is considered a terrorist organization by the Saudis and several other countries.

Anaxagoras wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:30 am
xouper wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:55 am
Furthermore, your comparison of Khashoggi to Hannity is patently ridiculous. It is a matter of record that Khashoggi has advocated the overthrow of the Saudi government.
Evidence?
Seriously?

May I suggest you do more research before you continue to argue from a position of ignorance lack of relevant knowledge. :wink:
...
Every one agrees Jamal WAS a member of the Muslim brotherhood, many folks claim that he had (over time) drifted away from it though, others say he never really left, I don't know.

Other than that, I am having a hard time finding any reference to him advocating the overthrow of the Saudi government though.

Having said that, I think the lame stream media "reaction" is way out of proportion. Would this have even been a story, if the victim had been some low-level bureaucrat?

I rather doubt it.
Maybe he was at one time a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. That's not the claim that was made though. As you correctly point out, the claim was that "It is a matter of record that Khashoggi has advocated the overthrow of the Saudi government". For which I have seen zero evidence.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by gnome » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:48 pm

... is it just me, or are there two different versions of my last post? I thought the "whatevs" version was lost and I tried reposting it yesterday with slightly different wording. Now I don't see the reposted version.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:04 pm

gnome wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:48 pm
... is it just me, or are there two different versions of my last post? I thought the "whatevs" version was lost and I tried reposting it yesterday with slightly different wording. Now I don't see the reposted version.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:46 pm

gnome wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:48 pm
... is it just me, or are there two different versions of my last post? I thought the "whatevs" version was lost and I tried reposting it yesterday with slightly different wording. Now I don't see the reposted version.
A few posts got marooned on the old forum server.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Rob Lister » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:53 pm

As long as Pyrrho recovers the posts by ed, I'm happy.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:58 pm

He has seventeen days.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by WildCat » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:35 pm

gnome wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:48 pm
... is it just me, or are there two different versions of my last post? I thought the "whatevs" version was lost and I tried reposting it yesterday with slightly different wording. Now I don't see the reposted version.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by gnome » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:14 am

xouper wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:40 am
(That is a separate issue from — and does not contradict — the issue I was primarily interested in running my mouth about commenting on, which is the apparent double standard by many in the media.)
I thought that's what we were talking about. If you're looking for a double standard, shouldn't it be according to the same set of values?

Maybe I'm missing what the double standard you observe is.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:47 am

I am not sure he understands it.

It is a rather basic false analogy.

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"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by xouper » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:51 am

Doctor X wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:47 am
I am not sure he understands it.

It is a rather basic false analogy.

--J.D.
Every analogy is a false analogy if you focus only on the differences and ignore the similarities, which is what you are doing here.

I stand by my observation that both countries have assassinated (without due process) one or more of their own citizens whom they consider to be an enemy.

Nothing you've said refutes that.

You have merely quibbled about how to define "enemy". As I have said — which has not been refuted — the Saudis are not bound by your definition.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:08 am

xouper wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:51 am
Doctor X wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:47 am
I am not sure he understands it.

It is a rather basic false analogy.

--J.D.
Every analogy is a false analogy if you focus only on the differences and ignore the similarities, which is what you are doing here.

I stand by my observation that both countries have assassinated (without due process) one or more of their own citizens whom they consider to be an enemy.

Nothing you've said refutes that.

You have merely quibbled about how to define "enemy". As I have said — which has not been refuted — the Saudis are not bound by your definition.
Depends whether the differences are more important that the similarities. If the differences are significant enough to make a moral distinction, then one is not a "hypocrite" for putting them in different categories.

You keep returing to the idea that "the Saudis are not bound by your definition" which (firstly) isn't relevant to whether the person making the judgment is a hypocrite for using their own moral criteria. Second, there is a thing called a "reasonable person standard" in law. Would you also say that "Hitler was not bound by your definition" (of an enemy)? If so, I guess we have to shrug and say "Gee, who are we to judge Hitler, he wasn't bound by our definition of morality." After all, by his definition, everyone he killed was an "enemy". What I'm saying is that if the Saudi definition doesn't pass the "reasonable person test", then we don't have to accept it.

And by the way, I'm still awaiting evidence that Kashoggi was "on the record" as advocating the overthrow of the Saudi government.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:12 pm

My definition of a World Figure Skating Championship is "giving aid and comfort to an enemy."

I win.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by gnome » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:54 pm

xouper wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:51 am
I stand by my observation that both countries have assassinated (without due process) one or more of their own citizens whom they consider to be an enemy.
If that were the sole basis of objection, you would be right.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:04 am

And his observation, as noted and demonstrated too many times, is wrong.

--J.D.
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"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:45 am

After CIA briefing, Republicans say 'no question' Saudi crown prince ordered Khashoggi murder
Following a briefing by CIA director Gina Haspel Tuesday on the murder of Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi, leading Republican senators told reporters that there was "zero question" that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman ordered the brutal murder.

Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Sen. Bob Corker, a Tennessee Republican, said "I have zero question in my mind that the Crown Prince MBS ordered the killing, monitored the killing, knew exactly what was happening. Planned it in advance. If he was in front of a jury he would be convicted in 30 minutes. Guilty," Corker said.

Corker called the Trump administration's claim that there is no direct evidence of the crown prince's involvement "unacceptable."
So that's it. No question. No room for any reasonable doubt.
South Carolina Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham said, "There's not a smoking gun, there's a smoking saw."

"You have to be willfully blind not to come to the conclusion that this was orchestrated and organized by people under the command of MBS and that he was intricately involved in the demise of Mr. Khashoggi," he said.

He went on: "If the Saudi government is going to be in the hands of this man, I find it very difficult to be able to do business because I think he's crazy, I think he's dangerous, and he has put the relationship at risk."

Graham concluded that he can no longer support arms sales to the kingdom.

Given those comments, it appeared Haspel's briefing would not help the administration win back support for its military aid to the Saudi-led coalition fighting in Yemen.
OTOH, apparantly some other senators who weren't briefed were not happy:
The fact that the briefing was limited to a small group angered several senators, including Republican allies of President Trump.

A furious Sen. Rand Paul lashed out as the closed-door briefing was taking place. The Kentucky Republican told reporters of the briefing, “We’re reading about it in the media."

“I think it’s wrong for the CIA to have expressed a conclusion that the Crown Prince was involved with the killing of Khashoggi and then withhold that information,” he said.
Why does the CIA brief some senators but not others? Maybe because of which committee they are on?
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:54 am

That, particular with security clearances.

I suspect that Trump is allowing Congress to play "bad cop."

Now, what, if anything, can they "do?"

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"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
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Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:40 am

I guess we'll see about that. The Magnitsky Act maybe?

I'm also wondering exactly how fixed the Saudi line of succession really is, given that it had been changed in the recent past. With enough international pressure, maybe other Saudi royals will start to wonder if it was a mistake to give this guy so much power.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by WildCat » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:20 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:40 am
I guess we'll see about that. The Magnitsky Act maybe?

I'm also wondering exactly how fixed the Saudi line of succession really is, given that it had been changed in the recent past. With enough international pressure, maybe other Saudi royals will start to wonder if it was a mistake to give this guy so much power.
They'd all do the same thing. It's a barbaric, backwards country full of dirt-ignorant savages and frankly only held together by the glue and rubber bands of extreme state violence.
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