Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:49 pm

About EOs and immigration, with reference to what Obama did.

Any EO about selectively enforcing existing law is constitutional even if totally evil.

So that Obama's "dreamer" policy and Trump rescinding it are both constitutional.

So was Trump's so called "Muslim ban" (which was really a travel ban from certain named countries).

None of this is an argument for or against anything.

Kapeesh y'all? :cowbell:
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:06 pm

WildCat wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:37 pm
Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:11 am
Is it? Applicable to what?
Applicable to interpreting what the language meant in 1868, when the 14th Amendment was passed. A law passed a hundred years later cannot change the meaning of the Constitution, that requires an Amendment.
Yeah, but laws duly passed by congress are also "applicable" unless the supreme court says that they violate the constitution. AFAIK, that hasn't happened with this law. The constitution is supreme, but if it's vague then laws can add further clarity. The constitution says "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" but doesn't precisely define what "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" means. This law does define what that means. Afaik, the supreme court hasn't said otherwise.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by WildCat » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:14 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:06 pm
Yeah, but laws duly passed by congress are also "applicable" unless the supreme court says that they violate the constitution. AFAIK, that hasn't happened with this law. The constitution is supreme, but if it's vague then laws can add further clarity. The constitution says "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" but doesn't precisely define what "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" means. This law does define what that means. Afaik, the supreme court hasn't said otherwise.
A case has never come before the Supreme Court. But a definition passed by Congress in the 1960s will have no bearing on what the definition was in 1868, the court will have to derive that from contemporary sources. To rule otherwise would make the entire Constitution meaningless, because any of it could be nullified simply by passing a new law re-defining the terms.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by gnome » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:27 pm

I think that aligns with how I consider it--the legislature can write more specific language to flesh out how a constitutional requirement shall be applied to current contexts, but the laws are subject to review (during a dispute) by court system for how "correctly" they do so.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by corplinx » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:09 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:49 pm
About EOs and immigration, with reference to what Obama did.

Any EO about selectively enforcing existing law is constitutional even if totally evil.

So that Obama's "dreamer" policy and Trump rescinding it are both constitutional.

So was Trump's so called "Muslim ban" (which was really a travel ban from certain named countries).

None of this is an argument for or against anything.

Kapeesh y'all? :cowbell:

"muslim ban", the strawman manufactured outrage of 2 years ago. That was classic. Schumie cried for that one.

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by xouper » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:54 am

gnome wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:35 pm
xouper wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:55 am
Democrats (not Republicans) have recently called for
There's that vague phrasing I complain about a lot.

On a scale of "couple of bloggers on Huffpo" to "bill proposed and endorsed by party leadership" where is this one? I have the impression that it's pretty close to the former side.

"Republicans have proposed making a literal theocracy of the country."

That's a technically true statement, but does it tell you anything about how many Republicans or how influential they are? It does not, and such a statement would be rightly derided as overblown.
Thanks for helping me be more precise in my writing. Here is my proposed revision:

I am reminded that the politicians who have recently called for increasing the number of justices on the Supreme Court are Democrats (not Republicans) so that it could rubberstamp the liberal agenda.

Is that sufficiently less "vague"? If not, I'll try again.

Or how about if I simply quote from Time Magazine:
Jacob Hale Russell wrote:Justice Kennedy’s retirement has prompted a chorus of cries by Democrats to resuscitate a seemingly unlikely idea: “packing” the Supreme Court.
Perhaps that is less vague than how I phrased it?

At least by quoting others, if you still feel the statement could be rightly derided as overblown, it would not be me you were deriding, it would be the liberal media, or more specifically in this case a Rutgers law professor.

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by gnome » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:27 pm

I'm fine with your revision. It drops the hasty generalization via ambiguous phrasing and substitutes a point made about people who actually make that proposal.

I am curious (and not contradicting, because I don't know) has this proposal been suggested by any actual elected politicians? And I mean real ones, not just nuttos in state legislatures. I can match any crazy one for one there.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by gnome » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:32 pm

corplinx wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:09 pm
"muslim ban", the strawman manufactured outrage of 2 years ago. That was classic. Schumie cried for that one.
Is it a strawman if it came from the horse's mouth?

(a summary I got from a liberal rag linked below)

Cato Institute: A Dozen Times Trump Equated his Travel Ban with a Muslim Ban
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:39 pm

There is a certain dynamic tension due to the fact that a lot of Trump supporters would like a real ban on Muslims and defended the "Muslim ban" as such.

But it wasn't.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by gnome » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:44 pm

No, it wasn't ACTUALLY a Muslim ban in effect. But it is accurate to say that Trump has many times referred to it such. So it isn't just someone trying to strawman Trump. Or does that count as him strawmanning himself?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Grammatron » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:15 pm

gnome wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:44 pm
No, it wasn't ACTUALLY a Muslim ban in effect. But it is accurate to say that Trump has many times referred to it such. So it isn't just someone trying to strawman Trump. Or does that count as him strawmanning himself?
I would say that Trump did make those statements. In fact, Trump continues to put forth these half-baked ideas that will never pass any legal test. However, he then has people who understand how out constitutional republic works to create policy that is legal and not extreme.

Personally, I am still not sure if Trump thinks "out loud" or these inflammatory statements on policy are designed to rile everyone up while a much more reasonable proposal is put forth. If it's the former, I am of the opinion it's a great thing to see how the political sausage is made. If it's the latter, then I can see the danger of adding to polarization of extremes.

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by shuize » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:48 pm

I’m still not sold on ending birthright citizenship by executive order. But such things wouldn’t be necessary if Democrats would stop calling every attempt to enforce immigration laws “racist.”

The thing that probably irritates me the most about their approach to illegal immigration and “amnesty” is the message is sends to the people patiently waiting overseas: Legal immigration is for chumps.