Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by corplinx » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:52 pm

Trump forces the issue (again). Film at 11. Everyone is discussing it as intended.

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Skeeve » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:18 pm

corplinx wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:52 pm
Trump forces the issue (again). Film at 11. Everyone is discussing it as intended.
He seems very good at that...

From: Trump wants to end birthright citizenship — here's what the law says about that
...
Trump's plan could be at odds with the 14th Amendment and the Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1952, both ratified by Congress, which state that people born in the US and subject to its jurisdiction are citizens at birth.
...
Further, the Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1952, the basic body of US immigration law, also says a "person born in the United States who is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States is a U.S. citizen at birth."
...
Trump's legal argument for overriding the common interpretation of the 14th Amendment and the INA, both ratified by Congress, will most likely amount to challenging whether unauthorized immigrants to the US are subject to US jurisdiction, a clause included in both the 14th Amendment and the INA.
Last edited by Skeeve on Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by ed » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:26 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:45 pm
ed wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:41 pm
Well, let me ask you about due process. Do you have it with IRS?
Yes.
Every time an agency (unelected) makes a "Rule" they skirt right next to the constitution. What about the shit that the dept of ed under oboma did to largely eliminate the rights of the accused to council and the presumption of innocence and all that stuff.
Just because the system works doesn't mean everything's instant.
Justice delayed is justice denied.
Could you explain how the justice system in involved in a dispute with IRS? I mean, can you sue? If they garnish your pay can you hie them to the nearest court?

How does that work exacyly?
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Grammatron » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:03 pm

ed wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:26 pm
Justice delayed is justice denied.
Then it may not exist at all.
Could you explain how the justice system in involved in a dispute with IRS? I mean, can you sue? If they garnish your pay can you hie them to the nearest court?
How does that work exacyly?
Attorneys who specialize in tax law and dealing with IRS is a thing.

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by ed » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:28 pm

Tax Court, my boy, Tax Court.

Not "Court" but "Tax Court"
https://www.thebalancesmb.com/how-tax-c ... rks-397664

Burden of proof is on you. Do you think that there is the equivalent of a Grand Jury? No. They say you owe them money and that is all she wrote.

Jury? Are you fucking smoking dope? This is TAX COURT.

Sorta like the People's Court except they don't speak German.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Giz » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:44 pm

Sorta like the people's court, except with less arbitrary death camps and more, generally deserved, financial penalties?

Damn nazis, getting into every comparison. We need metaphor-raum. Enough to last a generation, before we are reich back where we started.

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by corplinx » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:50 pm

Nancy Pelosi said today "THIS IS JUST A DISTRACTION".

It's remarkable because it's the first honest thing that crazy bitch has said in years.

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by corplinx » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:50 pm

At least Trump doesn't have to bomb a medicine factory to wag the dog.

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:45 pm

corplinx wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:52 pm
Trump forces the issue (again). Film at 11. Everyone is discussing it as intended.
A schtick to get out the vote with no intention of doing anything of substance + taking away control of the narrative.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:48 pm

corplinx wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:50 pm
Nancy Pelosi said today "THIS IS JUST A DISTRACTION".

It's remarkable because it's the first honest thing that crazy bitch has said in years.
But that's what she says about everything :notsure:
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:06 pm

OK I'm fantasizing now.

1) Contrary to my expectation Trump actually issues the EO.

2) It is challenged and goes to the Supreme Court (of course).

3) The Supreme Court knocks it down 5 to 4.

Ginsburg, Sotomayor, Kagan, Breyer, Kavanaugh.

Kavanaugh writes his own opinion that heavily draws on the over 100 years of stare decisis on the matter as well as a literal interpretation of the 14th amendment.

I just want everybody's head to explode. :mrgreen:
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by WildCat » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:09 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:06 pm
over 100 years of stare decisis on the matter
There is? Can you name even one?
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:17 pm

Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 1886.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Skeeve » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:51 am

Paul Ryan Dismisses Trump Plan To Void Birthright Citizenship Law By Executive Order
Oh well, I guess that is that then...
"Well, you obviously cannot do that," Ryan told radio station WVLK in Kentucky. "You cannot end birthright citizenship with an executive order."

Ryan noted any changes to a constitutional amendment require an act of Congress, adding: "We didn't like it when Obama tried changing immigration laws via executive action, and obviously as conservatives we believe in the Constitution. ... I'm a believer in following the plain text of the Constitution and I think in this case the 14th Amendment is pretty clear, and that would involve a very, very lengthy constitutional process."
IOW, the congressional folks will fuck you if you try it not be amused, Donald....
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:01 am

Skeeve wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:15 pm
I find it a bit hard to believe we are the ONLY country that does this though....
Image

There seems to be an East/West divide. Most countries in the Western hemisphere grant citizenship to anyone born on their soil. In the Eastern hemisphere, most don't. At least not automatically.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by gnome » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:50 am

An interesting argument I read about birthright citizenship: it prevents intergenerational illegal immigrants.
That does strike me as a consequence worth considering if we abolish it.

A more specific thought of mine: if birthright citizenship is abolished, can we tone down the rhetoric about how being an illegal alien is a personal crime? Which is to say "you did wrong and should be arrested for it". There will be plenty of people who are "illegal aliens" through zero choice of their own--as if the crowd of minors in that situation isn't trouble enough. Shall we expect them to turn themselves in when they turn 18? Earlier, expecting them to report their families or else go to jail at 18? Once they do turn themselves in, where do we send them?

I see it as a big can of worms we don't want. Is "anchor babies" so large a problem that it's worth it? Is that the best solution?
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by WildCat » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:03 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:17 pm
Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 1886.
Nope, that didn't address the question at hand.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by corplinx » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:56 am

Wealthy asians flying to America to have their child on US soil and thus effectively "buying" dual citizenship is a new thing. Not that there is anything wrong with being asian and wealthy, but it is a trend.

As usual, everyone will be focused on Latin american refugees or something and forget that the rich abuse the loophole as well as the H1B people who are here because the corporate fatcats are abusing the system.

TL;DR: By the same logic that says the Second Amendment wasn't written when Bazookas existed, we also didn't corporations getting rid entry level IT jobs by abusing VISA rules nor was transpacific flight as easy for timing a childbirth when we passed the 14th.
Last edited by corplinx on Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by xouper » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:02 am

What did the authors of the 14th Amendment intend it to mean?

What Did the 14th Amendment Congress Think about “Birthright Citizenship”?

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Skeeve » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:16 am

xouper wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:02 am
What did the authors of the 14th Amendment intend it to mean?

What Did the 14th Amendment Congress Think about “Birthright Citizenship”?
Very interesting...
...
The origins of this language are a bit hazy, but it must be recalled that the purpose of the 14th Amendment was to correct the infamous Dred Scott v. Sandford decision (1857) and recognize citizenship for the newly-freed slaves (but not members of Indian tribes living on reservations). The language of the Citizenship Clause derived from the Civil Rights Act of 1866, enacted by the same legislators (the 39th Congress) who framed the 14th Amendment. The Civil Rights Act of 1866 conferred citizenship on “All persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed.” (Emphasis added.) Foreign nationals resident in the United States, and children who become citizens of a foreign country at birth (by virtue of their parents’ citizenship) would obviously be excluded from this definition.
...
The record of the debate in 1866 is illuminating. When Senator Lyman Trumbull (D-IL), Chairman of the Judiciary Committee (and a key figure in the drafting and adoption of the 14th Amendment) was asked what the phrase “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” meant, he responded: “That means ‘subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.’ What do we mean by ‘complete jurisdiction thereof’? Not owing allegiance to anyone else.
...
This exchange supports very strongly the conclusion that the Citizenship Clause was intended to mean the same as the Civil Rights Act of 1866—excluding children born in the United States to foreign nationals (that is, to resident aliens).
It is also worth nothing from Jacob Howard (another author of the 14th amendment)
...
Howard is credited with working closely with Abraham Lincoln in drafting and passing the Thirteenth Amendment, which abolished slavery. In the Senate, he also served on the Joint Committee on Reconstruction, which drafted the Fourteenth Amendment.

During the debate over the first clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, he argued for including the phrase "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof:"

...[E]very person born within the limits of the United State, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the government of the United States, but will include every other class of person.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_M._ ... .S._Senate

Interesting.
The 14th was originally considered NOT to be applicable to ambasadors (who owe allegance to another government) having children here.

I suppose the "parents" of anchor babies could be considered to "owe allegance to another country." Technically, they are citizens of another country, no?

:Popcorn:
Last edited by Skeeve on Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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