Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:36 am

WildCat wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:03 am
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:17 pm
Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 1886.
Nope, that didn't address the question at hand.
It said the 14th amendment broadly applied to resident aliens, and has been interpreted that way ever since.

Let's put this argument on hold unless I'm proven really REALLY wrong by Trump actually issuing the EO. :)
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:48 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:36 am
WildCat wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:03 am
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:17 pm
Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 1886.
Nope, that didn't address the question at hand.
It said the 14th amendment broadly applied to resident aliens, and has been interpreted that way ever since.

Let's put this argument on hold unless I'm proven really REALLY wrong by Trump actually issuing the EO. :)
Perhaps you meant this one?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... ng_Kim_Ark (1898)
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:12 am

But of course it's always possible for the Supremes to reverse themselves.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Skeeve » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:18 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:12 am
But of course it's always possible for the Supremes to reverse themselves.
Hell Yea Abdul....speaking of reversal...

THEN



NOW
...
Reid reversed his position in 1999 and apologized for his stance, shortly after the union group AFL-CIO, which holds significant political sway nationally and in Nevada, changed its position to support birthright citizenship. The Las Vegas Review-Journal reported that Reid has since called his speech "way up high" on his "list of mistakes," and in 2006 he referred to it as a "low point" of his legislative career.
Link: Harry Reid's 1993 claim that 'no sane country' would provide birthright citizenship fuels GOP immigration push

:doglaugh:
Then Skank Of America could start in...

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:23 pm

If I'm wrong about Trump just talking about an EO and not really doing it, it will go like this.

1) EO right before the election, which helps the Republicans.
2) Nearly instantaneous injunction against it in federal court.
3) It goes to the Supremes and they agree to hear it.
4) Slapped down by rather more than the 5-4 of my fantasy.

But I will not argue any more legal points unless/until I see an EO.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:25 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:01 am
Image

There seems to be an East/West divide. ...
Mostly countries that initially were settled by massive immigration.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by WildCat » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:45 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:36 am
It said the 14th amendment broadly applied to resident aliens, and has been interpreted that way ever since.
Read the decision, the court never ruled on the meaning of the 14th Amendment they ruled that the law was targeted solely at Chinese and thus violated the equal protection clause.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by WildCat » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:48 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:48 am
Perhaps you meant this one?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... ng_Kim_Ark (1898)
That didn't address the question either, it concerned the birthright citizenship of legal US residents.

As far as I know there has never been a case that addressed the issue, and thus Abdul's "100 years of stare decisis" simply doesn't exist.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:51 pm

Think the EO will happen?
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by WildCat » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:54 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:51 pm
Think the EO will happen?
Whether or not the EO gets slapped down by the courts will depend on whether or not the President of Congress can set the policy, and not on 14th Amendment interpretations IMHO.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:06 pm

But do you think there will really be an EO in the first place?
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by WildCat » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:36 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:06 pm
But do you think there will really be an EO in the first place?
Yes, why wouldn't there? This is Trump's MO. The purpose is to get the no-borders Democrats to show who they really are.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by ed » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:49 pm

He should. For the lulz if nothing else.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by corplinx » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:50 pm

WildCat wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:36 pm
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:06 pm
But do you think there will really be an EO in the first place?
Yes, why wouldn't there? This is Trump's MO. The purpose is to get the no-borders Democrats to show who they really are.
Even Wildcat gets it.

No-borders anti-Westphalians make normal people uncomfortable. Without consciously thinking about it, most people realize the nation state is the best evolution of governance vs a global government.

Normal swing voters may not go around thinking about sovereignty all the time, but anti-sovereignty strikes the wrong chord with them.

The commies and hippies basically tell people "we don't believe in America nor wish it to continue".

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by ed » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:00 pm

Meanwhile insisting that america is the destination of choice for all the wetbacks.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by gnome » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:02 pm

Skeeve wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:16 am
xouper wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:02 am
What did the authors of the 14th Amendment intend it to mean?

What Did the 14th Amendment Congress Think about “Birthright Citizenship”?
Very interesting...
...
The origins of this language are a bit hazy, but it must be recalled that the purpose of the 14th Amendment was to correct the infamous Dred Scott v. Sandford decision (1857) and recognize citizenship for the newly-freed slaves (but not members of Indian tribes living on reservations). The language of the Citizenship Clause derived from the Civil Rights Act of 1866, enacted by the same legislators (the 39th Congress) who framed the 14th Amendment. The Civil Rights Act of 1866 conferred citizenship on “All persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed.” (Emphasis added.) Foreign nationals resident in the United States, and children who become citizens of a foreign country at birth (by virtue of their parents’ citizenship) would obviously be excluded from this definition.
...
The record of the debate in 1866 is illuminating. When Senator Lyman Trumbull (D-IL), Chairman of the Judiciary Committee (and a key figure in the drafting and adoption of the 14th Amendment) was asked what the phrase “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” meant, he responded: “That means ‘subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.’ What do we mean by ‘complete jurisdiction thereof’? Not owing allegiance to anyone else.
...
This exchange supports very strongly the conclusion that the Citizenship Clause was intended to mean the same as the Civil Rights Act of 1866—excluding children born in the United States to foreign nationals (that is, to resident aliens).
It is also worth nothing from Jacob Howard (another author of the 14th amendment)
...
Howard is credited with working closely with Abraham Lincoln in drafting and passing the Thirteenth Amendment, which abolished slavery. In the Senate, he also served on the Joint Committee on Reconstruction, which drafted the Fourteenth Amendment.

During the debate over the first clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, he argued for including the phrase "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof:"

...[E]very person born within the limits of the United State, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the government of the United States, but will include every other class of person.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_M._ ... .S._Senate

Interesting.
The 14th was originally considered NOT to be applicable to ambasadors (who owe allegance to another government) having children here.

I suppose the "parents" of anchor babies could be considered to "owe allegance to another country." Technically, they are citizens of another country, no?

:Popcorn:
The highlighted phrase isn't explicitly connected to the "subject to the jurisdiction" clause. It seems to be referring to the entire statement--that is, he proposed excluding those noted in the highlighted phrase, but the version passed and ratified did not contain that exclusion. Couldn't you argue, then, that his preference to exclude children of foreigners etc, did not ultimately hold in the final version?
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Skeeve » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:23 pm

gnome wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:02 pm
Skeeve wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:16 am

...Yuuuuuuge Snip.....

:Popcorn:
The highlighted phrase isn't explicitly connected to the "subject to the jurisdiction" clause. It seems to be referring to the entire statement--that is, he proposed excluding those noted in the highlighted phrase, but the version passed and ratified did not contain that exclusion. Couldn't you argue, then, that his preference to exclude children of foreigners etc, did not ultimately hold in the final version?
Good question gnome. I don't know, but I find it interesting that he was adamant that the phrase;

"subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof" was included.

This kind of leaves folks in future years (like us) to ask; "What the fuck does that mean?

Thus the look back...

Meanwhile: Trump dismisses a century of constitutional scholarship in bid to end birthright citizenship
President Trump on Wednesday again sought to turn the nation’s attention to his hard-line stance on immigration ahead of next week’s midterm elections, claiming that birthright citizenship is not covered by the U.S. Constitution and vowing the issue will ultimately be settled by the Supreme Court.

“So-called Birthright Citizenship, which costs our Country billions of dollars and is very unfair to our citizens, will be ended one way or the other,” Trump tweeted.
Then Skank Of America could start in...

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by WildCat » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:23 pm

Gnome, have you found a Democrat yet who supports enforcing immigration laws? Who thinks there should be limits to immigration? Who thinks we should be able to pick and choose who enters our country?
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Skeeve » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:38 pm

WildCat wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:23 pm
Gnome, have you found a Democrat yet who supports enforcing immigration laws? Who thinks there should be limits to immigration? Who thinks we should be able to pick and choose who enters our country?
Well WildCat, they used to...back before the decade of dubya...once upon a time....


...
Trump and other conservatives pointed to a 1993 speech by former Sen. Harry Reid, D-Nevada, who argued “no sane country” would grant citizenship to children of illegal immigrants.

“If you break our laws by entering this country without permission and give birth to a child, we reward that child with citizenship and guarantee a full access to all public and social services this country provides,” Reid lamented. “That’s a lot of services.”

“Harry Reid was right in 1993, before he and the Democrats went insane and started with the Open Borders (which brings massive Crime) ‘stuff,’” the president tweeted Wednesday. “Don’t forget the nasty term Anchor Babies. I will keep our Country safe. This case will be settled by the United States Supreme Court!”

Trump added: “The World is using our laws to our detriment. They laugh at the Stupidity they see!”
I love the way they are quoting Harry Reid...
Harry's Video: "www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJY4yHeYSjw"
Article Link: https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-dismis ... 02986.html
Then Skank Of America could start in...

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by ed » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:19 pm

The purpose was to assure citizenship to freed slaves. Any other interpretation is simply racist.
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