Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by WildCat » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:06 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:17 am
There's also a law passed by congress in 1952:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1401

See applicable definitions:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/31/515.329

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/31/515.330

What it says is that "Any person actually within the United States" is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. So even if the constitution doesn't spell it out, the law does.
But what did it mean in 1868? That's the applicable definition.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:11 am

WildCat wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:06 am
Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:17 am
There's also a law passed by congress in 1952:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1401

See applicable definitions:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/31/515.329

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/31/515.330

What it says is that "Any person actually within the United States" is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. So even if the constitution doesn't spell it out, the law does.
But what did it mean in 1868? That's the applicable definition.
Is it? Applicable to what?
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Skeeve » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:26 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:17 am
There's also a law passed by congress in 1952:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1401

See applicable definitions:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/31/515.329

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/31/515.330

What it says is that "Any person actually within the United States" is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. So even if the constitution doesn't spell it out, the law does.
That is NOT the case for ambasadors, or embassy staff.
They are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
Under Article 9 of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, a receiving state may "at any time and without having to explain its decision" declare any member of a diplomatic staff persona non grata. A person so declared is considered unacceptable and is usually recalled to his or her home nation.

With the protection of mission staff from prosecution for violating civil and criminal laws, depending on rank, under Articles 41 and 42 of the Vienna Convention, they are bound to respect national laws and regulations. Breaches of these articles can lead to a persona non grata declaration being used to punish erring staff.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona_non_grata

Which is at least one of the things Jacob Howard ment and refered to, when he insisted on putting that phrase into the 14th amendment.
...
[E]very person born within the limits of the United State, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the government of the United States, but will include every other class of person.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_M._ ... .S._Senate
Originally American indians were not included also.
That was fixed by The Indian Citizenship Act of 1924.

SO, from your first link, we have...
The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:
(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;
I think there is enough "grey area" for Trump to do something...exactly, what?
Who knows.
Last edited by Skeeve on Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by xouper » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:31 am

If you cannot be drafted into the Army, then you are not fully subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:47 am

xouper wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:31 am
If you cannot be drafted into the Army, then you are not fully subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
So women citizens aren't under the jurisdiction of the United States?
The disabled?
Children?
Senior citizens?
I think you just made that one up.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Grammatron » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:09 am

xouper wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:31 am
If you cannot be drafted into the Army, then you are not fully subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
What a wacky claim

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by xouper » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:16 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:47 am
xouper wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:31 am
If you cannot be drafted into the Army, then you are not fully subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
So women citizens aren't under the jurisdiction of the United States?
The disabled?
Children?
Senior citizens?
I think you just made that one up.
Apparently you did not read the source I cited way back on page 2 of this thread. For your convenience, I quote my entire post here:
xouper wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:02 am
What did the authors of the 14th Amendment intend it to mean?

What Did the 14th Amendment Congress Think about “Birthright Citizenship”?
If you had bothered to read that, you might have noticed this paragraph:
The record of the debate in 1866 is illuminating. When Senator Lyman Trumbull (D-IL), Chairman of the Judiciary Committee (and a key figure in the drafting and adoption of the 14th Amendment) was asked what the phrase “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” meant, he responded: “That means ‘subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.’ What do we mean by ‘complete jurisdiction thereof’? Not owing allegiance to anyone else. That is what it means.” (Emphasis added.) Only U.S. citizens owe “complete allegiance” to the United States. Everyone present in the United States is subject to its laws (and hence its “jurisdiction” in a general sense), but only citizens can be drafted into the armed forces of the United States, or prosecuted for treason if they take up arms against it.
Contrary to your (willfully uninformed) insinuation, I did not make that up.

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by xouper » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:34 am

xouper wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:02 am
What did the authors of the 14th Amendment intend it to mean?

What Did the 14th Amendment Congress Think about “Birthright Citizenship”?
Here's another similar opinion, published October 30, 2018:

Birthright Citizenship: A Fundamental Misunderstanding of the 14th Amendment

I assume I don't need to quote from that, since I assume y'all are smart enough to go read it yourself (it's not long) before running your mouth about it.

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:58 am

xouper wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:16 am
Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:47 am
xouper wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:31 am
If you cannot be drafted into the Army, then you are not fully subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
So women citizens aren't under the jurisdiction of the United States?
The disabled?
Children?
Senior citizens?
I think you just made that one up.
Apparently you did not read the source I cited way back on page 2 of this thread. For your convenience, I quote my entire post here:
xouper wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:02 am
What did the authors of the 14th Amendment intend it to mean?

What Did the 14th Amendment Congress Think about “Birthright Citizenship”?
If you had bothered to read that, you might have noticed this paragraph:
The record of the debate in 1866 is illuminating. When Senator Lyman Trumbull (D-IL), Chairman of the Judiciary Committee (and a key figure in the drafting and adoption of the 14th Amendment) was asked what the phrase “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” meant, he responded: “That means ‘subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.’ What do we mean by ‘complete jurisdiction thereof’? Not owing allegiance to anyone else. That is what it means.” (Emphasis added.) Only U.S. citizens owe “complete allegiance” to the United States. Everyone present in the United States is subject to its laws (and hence its “jurisdiction” in a general sense), but only citizens can be drafted into the armed forces of the United States, or prosecuted for treason if they take up arms against it.
Contrary to your (willfully uninformed) insinuation, I did not make that up.
Touchy. OK, I withdraw the part about you making it up. Nevertheless . . .

You do see how what he said (only citizens can be drafted) and what you said (If you cannot be drafted . . .) are not logical equivalents? It does not follow from "Only X's can be Y's" that "If not Y, therefore not X."

In any case, I doubt that courts would be bound by what was said in a debate about a law but not actually codified in said law. They may take such statements into consideration, but they aren't binding.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by xouper » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:16 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:58 am
You do see how what he said (only citizens can be drafted) and what you said (If you cannot be drafted . . .) are not logical equivalents? It does not follow from "Only X's can be Y's" that "If not Y, therefore not X."
I see that now, yes.

In hindsight, I concede that I phrased it badly. I should have simply quoted from the original instead of paraphrasing from memory. In my head, I knew what I intended to say, and did not stop to consider that the way I wrote it could reasonably be interpreted differently from what I meant.

Mea culpa.

I am not a professional writer. I have to work hard at how I write things and as you can see, I still don't always get it right. Fortunately, there are a bazillion critics on this forum who are more than happy to help me "proofread" my writing.

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:21 am

Nyarlathotep wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:00 am
I am so unsurprised to see how happy everyone is that The Supreme Court will now just be a rubberstamp for Trump.
I'm sure that there are plenty who think that way, but they may be in for an unpleasant surprise.

I do not believe Kavanaugh will go against established jurisprudence about the 14th amendment.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by xouper » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:55 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:21 am
Nyarlathotep wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:00 am
I am so unsurprised to see how happy everyone is that The Supreme Court will now just be a rubberstamp for Trump.
I'm sure that there are plenty who think that way, but they may be in for an unpleasant surprise.
I am reminded that Democrats (not Republicans) have recently called for increasing the number of justices on the Supreme Court so that it could rubberstamp the liberal agenda. I am not impressed by the hypocrisy of those crybaby liberals who complain about the court being a rubberstamp for Trump when it's just as likely that they will be quite happy with a court that rubberstamps for their next liberal president.

As Obama once pointed out, elections have consequences. When confronted by gripes from the GOP, did he not say "I won." Deal with it.

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:21 am
I do not believe Kavanaugh will go against established jurisprudence about the 14th amendment.
While everyone was distracted during the hearings with how Kavanaugh would handle Roe v Wade, did anyone think to ask him about birthright citizenship? Perhaps Trump has sneaked one by them? What is the position of the Federalist Society on birthright citizenship?

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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Skeeve » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:58 am

xouper wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:55 am

.....yuuuuuuugggge snip.....

As Obama once pointed out, elections have consequences. When confronted by gripes from the GOP, did he not say "I won." Deal with it.

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:21 am
I do not believe Kavanaugh will go against established jurisprudence about the 14th amendment.
While everyone was distracted during the hearings with how Kavanaugh would handle Roe v Wade, did anyone think to ask him about birthright citizenship? Perhaps Trump has sneaked one by them? What is the position of the Federalist Society on birthright citizenship?
Good question: Birthright Citizenship: Two Perspectives
Note from the Editor: This pair of articles debates the original meaning of Section 1 of the 14th Amendment, seeking to answer the question: Does the 14th Amendment Guarantee Citizenship to Babies Born to Illegal or Transient Immigrants on U.S. Soil? Mr. Walpin answers “no,” arguing that treating immigrants and the children humanely does not require interpreting the Constitution to grant birthright citizenship. Mr. Rivkin and Prof. Yoo argue that the 14th Amendment does in fact require that anyone born on U.S. soil be granted citizenship.

The Federalist Society takes no position on particular legal or public policy matters. Any expressions of opinion are those of the authors. When we publish an article that advocates for a particular position, we generally offer links to other perspectives on the issue, including ones opposed to the position taken in the article. However, in this case, the controversial nature of the issue merited full treatment from both sides. As always, we invite responses from our readers.
Oh well....
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by WildCat » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:37 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:11 am
Is it? Applicable to what?
Applicable to interpreting what the language meant in 1868, when the 14th Amendment was passed. A law passed a hundred years later cannot change the meaning of the Constitution, that requires an Amendment.

For example, if Congress passed a law today defining "the press" as only institutional news media with at least 50 employees it would not be applicable to interpreting the 1st Amendment.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by WildCat » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:40 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:21 am
I do not believe Kavanaugh will go against established jurisprudence about the 14th amendment.
You've now discovered "established jurisprudence" regarding the citizenship status of children born to illegal aliens? Care to share?
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:55 pm

WildCat wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:40 pm
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:21 am
I do not believe Kavanaugh will go against established jurisprudence about the 14th amendment.
You've now discovered "established jurisprudence" regarding the citizenship status of children born to illegal aliens? Care to share?
I will not argue points of law previous to seeing the EO.

However I will predict behavior of celebrities. :p
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by gnome » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:35 pm

xouper wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:55 am
Democrats (not Republicans) have recently called for
There's that vague phrasing I complain about a lot.

On a scale of "couple of bloggers on Huffpo" to "bill proposed and endorsed by party leadership" where is this one? I have the impression that it's pretty close to the former side.

"Republicans have proposed making a literal theocracy of the country."

That's a technically true statement, but does it tell you anything about how many Republicans or how influential they are? It does not, and such a statement would be rightly derided as overblown.
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by Skeeve » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:38 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:55 pm
WildCat wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:40 pm
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:21 am
I do not believe Kavanaugh will go against established jurisprudence about the 14th amendment.
You've now discovered "established jurisprudence" regarding the citizenship status of children born to illegal aliens? Care to share?
I will not argue points of law previous to seeing the EO.

However I will predict behavior of celebrities. :p
Okay, I give up Abdul, what in the heck is "the EO," Eventual Outcome?

Enquiring minds want to know!
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by gnome » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:38 pm

I think he's referring to the hypothetical Executive Order Trump would make around this.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Trump Vows To End Birthright Citizenship With Executive Order

Post by gnome » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:42 pm

This makes sense to me, that we must see it before we comment on the legality. Think of how this has played out before:

Trump: "I'm going to ban Muslims!"
Trump Fans: "Yay!"
Not Trump Fans: "Boo! Unconstitutional!"

(executive order issued which is not a Muslim ban)

Trump: "Here you go!"
Trump Fans: "Yay!"

What he says he'll do and what actually comes off his desk is not always the same thing, even if he pretends it is.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2