the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by ed » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:49 pm

Dr. King said:
“Evil may so shape events that Caesar will occupy a palace and Christ a cross,” Dr. King wrote, “but that same Christ will rise up and split history into A.D. and B.C., so that even the life of Caesar must be dated by his name. Yes, ‘the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.’”
https://www.thedailybeast.com/obama-lov ... ncorrectly

From Rev. Theodore Parker
Look at the facts of the world. You see a continual and progressive triumph of the right. I do not pretend to understand the moral universe; the arc is a long one, my eye reaches but little ways; I cannot calculate the curve and complete the figure by the experience of sight; I can divine it by conscience. And from what I see I am sure it bends towards justice.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Theodore_Parker

All of which informs or is informed by the concept of Whig History:
Whig history (or Whig historiography) is an approach to historiography that presents the past as an inevitable progression towards ever greater liberty and enlightenment, culminating in modern forms of liberal democracy and constitutional monarchy.

In general, Whig historians emphasize the rise of constitutional government, personal freedoms and scientific progress. The term is often applied generally (and pejoratively) to histories that present the past as the inexorable march of progress towards enlightenment. The term is also used extensively in the history of science to mean historiography that focuses on the successful chain of theories and experiments that led to present-day science, while ignoring failed theories and dead ends.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whig_history

True? Or the bleatings of sad yet hopeful progressives?

I think that the issues involved are similar to those around Ghandi. He knew damn right well that eventually the liberal democracies would support him and even admire his ethos. How would he have faired if India was a German protectorate?

Here is a hint: not well.

These concepts speak of justice and "right" without any sort of objective definition. Being Westerners, they assume that we share the same definitions.

So, what is "justice" in Islam?
Image

And is this the future?
Image

We are relativists. We see the other side and even denigrate ourselves. The stupid and dangerous and sanctimonious finding of the human rights court in the EU is an example of caving.

As Edward said in Braveheart


It will be interesting to see what we value. And "value" is not defined by words but, rather, sacrifice. We'll see.
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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:52 pm

Theodore Parker? Not Harry Emerson Fosdick?

Who stole it from whom?

BTW, I'm a double atheist.
I disbelieve in Big Nobodaddy and the arc of the moral universe.
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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by Skeeve » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:16 pm

Image

Interesting, where you have patrarichary Islam, you seem to have increasing birthrate...
Where you have Feminism "western values," not so much...go figure.

Image
Then Skank Of America could start in...

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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by Skeeve » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:22 pm

Oh yea, I forgot, Re: "So, what is "justice" in Islam?"

This contrast speaks volumes...

Image

Image

I wonder if the condemned gets a choice?
Then Skank Of America could start in...

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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by ed » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:46 pm

Skeeve wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:16 pm

Interesting, where you have patrarichary Islam, you seem to have increasing birthrate...
Where you have Feminism "western values," not so much...go figure.


Education, wealth covary with western "values". And wealthy (comparatively) chicks put off birthin' those babies till it is often too late.

Less education is associated with higher birthrates since, I suppose, uneducated chicks have birthin' as their "occupation". You see the same thing here, not a big whoop. Just that when you have a society that subjugates women to a lesser position (as Huey Newton was wont to say "on their backs") as policy, you can expect massive birthrates. Till a war intervenes, naturally.

Point is that our values, the bill of rights essentially, is antithetical to the glue that holds Islam together. And the useful idiots pave the road with sanctimony.
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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:58 pm

Not sure what the point of this poost is. That we should be as vicious and regressive as the Islamic theocracies we claim to oppose?

If so, why oppose them if we are just going to run things the same damned way?
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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:58 pm

... uneducated chicks have birthin' as their "occupation".
ed.

Are you dissing natural selection? :evil:
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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by ed » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:01 pm

Protecting yourself is not the same thing.

Blowing a home invader away does not put you on the same level as him, to suggest otherwise is simply stupid.
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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:02 pm

But if any attempt to make a better society is mere 'whig history' and foolish, then it does suggest that we should be just as cruel as them. And the suggestion that we should treat women as mere baby machines, you know to keep up the population, suggests likewise.
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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:05 pm

ed wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:01 pm
Protecting yourself is not the same thing.

Blowing a home invader away does not put you on the same level as him, to suggest otherwise is simply stupid.
Which one of us are you answering? :?
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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by WildCat » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:22 pm

It's the idiocracy in action, poor people have more children than the rest of society. Islamist societies make ignorance the norm, thus they will be poor and have more kids.

Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:36 pm

A good movie, but it suffers from the defect that an "idiocracy" like that wouldn't be able to stay technological like that for very long. Certainly not the implied five centuries.

A better story along the same lines is Cyril M Kornbluth's The Marching Morons which I am sure was the inspiration for the movie (along with Gadliator at Law by the same author which has a scene very similar to one in the movie).

In The Marching Morons there is a behind the scenes genius elite keeping things going. I won't give away the sock-o ending.
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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by ed » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:28 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:02 pm
But if any attempt to make a better society is mere 'whig history' and foolish, then it does suggest that we should be just as cruel as them. And the suggestion that we should treat women as mere baby machines, you know to keep up the population, suggests likewise.

Never said that nor did I suggest it.

Whig History like the "Arc" is post hoc rationalization with a heapin' helpin' of cherry picking of data.

The point is that the Whig Historians are a lot like religious fanatics that make assumptions about the Flood and other things that do not take into account that we are not in a closed system. If we were simply dealing with the West you might argue that "progress" is sorta continuous. But that ain't the case. Islam is a baleful influence, not different from Europe in the 15th century. What lefties that get misty eyed over burkas miss is that those fuckers really really believe their shit. Really. It isn't a cute thing that they talk about over Lattes at Starbucks. And they'll kill you. Really kill you.

I've posted this before. I think that it is reasonably accurate.

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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by ed » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:29 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:05 pm
ed wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:01 pm
Protecting yourself is not the same thing.

Blowing a home invader away does not put you on the same level as him, to suggest otherwise is simply stupid.
Which one of us are you answering? :?
Not sure what the point of this poost is. That we should be as vicious and regressive as the Islamic theocracies we claim to oppose?

If so, why oppose them if we are just going to run things the same damned way?
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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:36 pm

The "arc of the moral universe" may have an element of Whiggish history about it (like many other conceits), but that's not the main point.

It's more of a "being on the right side of history" thing. With an emphasis on an old fashioned Marxist idea of "the science of history".

After all, the Whigs didn't try to extend their history into the future.
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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by ed » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:39 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:36 pm
The "arc of the moral universe" may have an element of Whiggish history about it (like many other conceits), but that's not the main point.

It's more of a "being on the right side of history" thing. With an emphasis on an old fashioned Marxist idea of "the science of history".

After all, the Whigs didn't try to extend their history into the future.
Well, the point is, I think, that the curve bends towards justice and all that so the extension is a given. Very Victorian actually.
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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:43 pm

Victorian? Or early Second Reich?

Contemporaries I know. Not unlike Engels and Marx respectively.
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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:47 pm

Still not getting it.

There is a helluva a lot of middle ground between "Kill every Muslim man, woman, and child on the planet" and "Give in to Muslim theocracy"
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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:50 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:47 pm
Still not getting it.

There is a helluva a lot of middle ground between "Kill every Muslim man, woman, and child on the planet" and "Give in to Muslim theocracy"
I'm definitely not getting something.

Who here proposed either of those things?


In this thread I mean.
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Re: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:52 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:50 pm
Nyarlathotep wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:47 pm
Still not getting it.

There is a helluva a lot of middle ground between "Kill every Muslim man, woman, and child on the planet" and "Give in to Muslim theocracy"
I'm definitely not getting something.

Who here proposed either of those things?


In this thread I mean.

What I am getting, and probably incorrectly, is the suggestion "Muslims are evil, wipe them out" with the only possible alternative being utter and complete submission. Thus why I say I am not getting the point here.

The "wipe them out" part is admittedly an inference on my part, but what else are you going to do to an evil for whom you consider the only alternative to be submission?
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