Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by gnome » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:50 pm

xouper wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:43 pm
I find it curious that no one here tried to persuade Nyarl not to leave the forum.
I haven't found it helpful in the past. Let him take a break if he feels like it and return when he feels like it. That seems to work out well enough.

I like our little group and hope everyone more or less sticks around a while longer, until we really are the old squabbling fuddy-duddies we sometimes pretend to be. I'll back off my instinct to referee and mediate directly and just call for people to step back a minute when things get heated before diving back in. That's how I stay sane :)
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by xouper » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:54 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:32 pm
xouper wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:43 pm
I find it curious that no one here tried to persuade Nyarl not to leave the forum.
There are like 8 active users on this forum, maybe another 8 lurkers. This is not some vast and great ongoing debate, just few people shooting the shit. I don't know why things get heated and personal here, doesn't seem like there should be a reason. I also don't get how some people keep pushing points past other people's comfort zones.
Well said.

If I may ask, what would you (or anyone else) like to suggest I can do to improve my own posts to help resolve some of that?

Feel free to get personal, since I am asking for it. :)

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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by Grammatron » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:13 pm

xouper wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:54 pm
Grammatron wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:32 pm
xouper wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:43 pm
I find it curious that no one here tried to persuade Nyarl not to leave the forum.
There are like 8 active users on this forum, maybe another 8 lurkers. This is not some vast and great ongoing debate, just few people shooting the shit. I don't know why things get heated and personal here, doesn't seem like there should be a reason. I also don't get how some people keep pushing points past other people's comfort zones.
Well said.

If I may ask, what would you (or anyone else) like to suggest I can do to improve my own posts to help resolve some of that?

Feel free to get personal, since I am asking for it. :)
I think it's a bit like dating. You can ask another person on a date, but they are not obligated to respond or agree. If the other person is truly not interested, no amount of logical information will change their mind. In fact, by pushing back you might illicit strong hate and resentment. One should listen and respect the other person's wishes and opinion. But it's a free country, so you don't have to, but don't be surprised by the results.

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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by xouper » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:14 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:13 pm
I think it's a bit like dating. You can ask another person on a date, but they are not obligated to respond or agree. If the other person is truly not interested, no amount of logical information will change their mind. In fact, by pushing back you might illicit strong hate and resentment. One should listen and respect the other person's wishes and opinion. But it's a free country, so you don't have to, but don't be surprised by the results.
Thanks. What you say makes good sense.

Perhaps I should be more clear in my posts that I am not trying to change their mind. My primary purpose is to express my own opinions and also try to justify them where possible.

It would be helpful if you could point to a specific post of mine (or however many you like) that you consider to be an example of "pushback" by me, since I am not quite clear what you mean by that. I am certainly willing to be less "pushy" if I had a better idea what you have in mind.

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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by Grammatron » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:17 pm

xouper wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:14 pm
Grammatron wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:13 pm
I think it's a bit like dating. You can ask another person on a date, but they are not obligated to respond or agree. If the other person is truly not interested, no amount of logical information will change their mind. In fact, by pushing back you might illicit strong hate and resentment. One should listen and respect the other person's wishes and opinion. But it's a free country, so you don't have to, but don't be surprised by the results.
Thanks. What you say makes good sense.

Perhaps I should be more clear in my posts that I am not trying to change their mind. My primary purpose is to express my own opinions and also try to justify them where possible.

It would be helpful if you could point to a specific post of mine (or however many you like) that you consider to be an example of "pushback" by me, since I am not quite clear what you mean by that. I am certainly willing to be less "pushy" if I had a better idea what you have in mind.
Limitation of text-based communication, I suppose. It's easy to add/project emotion to text and completely miss the mark.

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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by gnome » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:25 pm

My thoughts on this--and I realize that I can probably do to follow my own advice on this matter--we take digs at each other. We're adults and can probably handle that. Tit for tat, someone may throw a retort. I wonder if it's best to end there when it's mostly trash talking each other. Trying to dig in and figure out who was right, when it was a throwaway comment in the first place, seems to produce little of value. Who needs to be the first to end it? When in doubt, be that person.

I'm going to start thinking about that myself. Man in the mirror and all.








shamone
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by xouper » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:34 pm

gnome wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:25 pm
My thoughts on this--and I realize that I can probably do to follow my own advice on this matter--we take digs at each other. We're adults and can probably handle that. Tit for tat, someone may throw a retort. I wonder if it's best to end there when it's mostly trash talking each other. Trying to dig in and figure out who was right, when it was a throwaway comment in the first place, seems to produce little of value. Who needs to be the first to end it? When in doubt, be that person.

I'm going to start thinking about that myself. Man in the mirror and all.
That's something worthwhile for me to think about as well.

For what it's worth, I don't think you have much to reflect on in this instance.

Whereas I have a strong tendency to punch back when people take cheap shots at me for no apparent good reason. If necessary, I can quote examples from several people to illustrate what I mean by that.

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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by Skeeve » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:43 pm

xouper wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:15 pm

...yuuuge snip....


Yes he did. Evidences:
Nyarlathotep wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:15 pm
The Righties want the Leftists Dead, and vice versa. The Whites want the Blacks dead and vice versa. You name a little box that people put themselves into and its a 100% guarantee that they will generally want anyone in any other little boxes dead.
Time to step back, take a breath, and laugh (if you can)...enjoy!


Then Skank Of America could start in...

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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by gnome » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:46 pm

Hell, punching back at what you think is a cheap shot isn't even what I'm trying to forestall. It's when we dive in as if we're trying to decide a winner that I think it goes astray.

I can think of at least once today where I've done that myself for a comment that didn't really need as much attention as it got. And I don't think I accomplished much besides entrench the other person in that position.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by xouper » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:24 pm

gnome wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:46 pm
. . . It's when we dive in as if we're trying to decide a winner that I think it goes astray.
Good point.

There is nothing to "win" here on this forum.

Except maybe this: :figamagee:

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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by xouper » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:32 pm

Skeeve wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:43 pm
Time to step back, take a breath, and laugh (if you can)...enjoy!
Whatever became of National Brotherhood Week?

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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by Skeeve » Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:05 pm

xouper wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:32 pm
Skeeve wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:43 pm
Time to step back, take a breath, and laugh (if you can)...enjoy!
Whatever became of National Brotherhood Week?
Oh well... in other news: Recount adds to Florida's reputation for bungling elections
...
Florida's history of election woes dates back to 2000, when it took more than five weeks for the state to declare George W. Bush the victor over Vice President Al Gore by 537 votes, thus giving Bush the presidency.
...
"We have been the laughingstock of the world, election after election, and we chose not to fix this," he said. Walker is presiding over one of several election-related lawsuits that have been filed since Nov. 6.
Well, come on folks, you have had the better part of two decades to get your act together. What do you expect?
Then Skank Of America could start in...

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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by gnome » Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:44 pm

Funny thing is a great deal has improved since 2000. We dumped the punch-chads, first in favor of electronic systems that had no physical paper trail, and now we've mostly gotten rid of even that and switched to optical scan ballots which work just fine and can be machine counted quickly, and hand counted without much ambiguity.

I can't speak for Broward County, of course.

I suspect, that in a state where major elections were so close, we would see similar trouble. When it's a purple state and a few thousand votes can make a big difference, the warts are seen. I think most states have them, it's just usually not so close that they matter.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by WildCat » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:04 pm

gnome wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:44 pm
Funny thing is a great deal has improved since 2000. We dumped the punch-chads, first in favor of electronic systems that had no physical paper trail, and now we've mostly gotten rid of even that and switched to optical scan ballots which work just fine and can be machine counted quickly, and hand counted without much ambiguity.

I can't speak for Broward County, of course.

I suspect, that in a state where major elections were so close, we would see similar trouble. When it's a purple state and a few thousand votes can make a big difference, the warts are seen. I think most states have them, it's just usually not so close that they matter.
I suspect that the Democrats strongly resist any and all reforms because they want that opportunity to cheat.
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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by gnome » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:46 pm

Why do you say Democrats in particular?

I believe in the phenomenon you describe, but I imagine it corresponds to whoever has the opportunity.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by WildCat » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:09 pm

gnome wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:46 pm
Why do you say Democrats in particular?

I believe in the phenomenon you describe, but I imagine it corresponds to whoever has the opportunity.
Because it's always the Democrats acting suspiciously (see broward County for example) and it's the Democrats who vigorously resist any and all reforms to make sure only eligible citizens can vote, voter rolls are wiped of people who have died or moved away, the voter is who they say they are, etc.

I would bet the farm that this guys "early vote" was straight ticket Democrat.

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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:34 pm

Slight change of pace.

A bloodless coup attempt within the Democratic Party.

Ocasio-Cortez pushes for a leftist revolt in the Democratic Party
NY Post
... Justice Democrats ...
New buzzword alert!
... The group said it wants Democratic members of Congress to be representative of their diverse communities and support liberal policies like “Medicare for all,” abolishing ICE, and implementing a “Green New Deal” to fight climate change and eschew corporate PAC money ...
Emphasis added. So whose money will they be taking? :cowbell:

Those eyes! :o

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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by Grammatron » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:37 pm

That's the most communisty shit I've heard: "“Green New Deal” to fight climate change".

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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:51 pm

When the stated goal of Communism is a better life for the workers, the whole mass starvation thing can be spun by right wingers as an argument that it doesn't work.

But if the goal is to reduce carbon dioxide, checkmate fascist pigs.
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Re: Another day, Another Bloodless Coup Attempt

Post by Grammatron » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:15 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:51 pm
When the stated goal of Communism is a better life for the workers, the whole mass starvation thing can be spun by right wingers as an argument that it doesn't work.

But if the goal is to reduce carbon dioxide, checkmate fascist pigs.
That's exactly what concerns me. When the goals are grand and nebulous like ushering communism, or saving the environment, or world peace; well you can roll virtually anything you want into grand goals and say it's part of the solution. And if you oppose them for any reason then, as you say, checkmate fascist pig. Going to have to fix you up and your counterrevolutionary anti-environmental ideals.