California burning

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
User avatar
Witness
Posts: 17231
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm
Has thanked: 2121 times
Been thanked: 2896 times

Re: California burning

Post by Witness » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:32 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:31 am
:(

Hope this tragedy teaches people to take fire danger seriously and evacuate.
Image

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8968
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 238 times
Been thanked: 144 times

Re: California burning

Post by xouper » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:47 pm


Surprise
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:33 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: California burning

Post by Surprise » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:41 am

xouper wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:03 am
google search: why carbon tax is a bad idea
Are you advocating for state intervention?

That is what the first link was advocating. They thought a carbon tax wouldn't be effective enough.

The second link was just an appeal to consequences.
The economy depends on the environment, not the other way around.
They have introduced unleaded gas and other regulations without the economy dying or failing to grow.

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 14102
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 34 times
Been thanked: 364 times

Re: California burning

Post by WildCat » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:19 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:06 am
So are tariffs, taxes on cigarettes, etc.

A carbon tax is manipulation for a good purpose.
Carbon taxes are a tax on the poor. They can just freeze if they don't like it, right?
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 14102
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 34 times
Been thanked: 364 times

Re: California burning

Post by WildCat » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:39 pm

Witness wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:32 pm
Image
It's called prescribed burns. Clears out the dead undergrowth in a controlled fashion, so it doesn't do it on its own in a wildly uncontrolled fashion after building up fuel for decades.

In its natural state California's landscape would have regularly burned. A centuryb of fire suppression allowed the fuel load to increase to the point where the fires are bigger, hotter, and more destructive.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 71785
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 3429 times
Been thanked: 1259 times

Re: California burning

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:57 pm

Lots of people, and no particular political party, have been screaming for ages about needing better forest management.

And this has nothing to do with "denying" climate change, even if climate change is part of the problem.

But when Trump says it, Brown has to be against it. He would rather see his state burn and yap about climate change to blame Trump.


Maybe this is some of the "collateral damage" Nancy Pelosi was talking about.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8968
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 238 times
Been thanked: 144 times

Re: California burning

Post by xouper » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:10 pm

Surprise wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:41 am
xouper wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:03 am
google search: why carbon tax is a bad idea
Are you advocating for state intervention?

That is what the first link was advocating. They thought a carbon tax wouldn't be effective enough.

The second link was just an appeal to consequences.
The economy depends on the environment, not the other way around.
They have introduced unleaded gas and other regulations without the economy dying or failing to grow.
I am not advocating for anything. Perhaps I could have been more clear about that.

I was merely trying to be helpful in pointing out that there are many legitimate arguments against the carbon tax. Whether anyone here agrees with any of those arguments is up to them.

Does that answer your question?

User avatar
sparks
Posts: 14182
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Friar McWallclocks Bar -- Where time stands still while you lean over!
Has thanked: 2009 times
Been thanked: 625 times

Re: California burning

Post by sparks » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:18 pm

xouper wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:47 pm
Here's yet another expert opinion:

Trump was right: California’s forests have been grossly mismanaged
This rather loosely implies Trump is an expert on forestry practices.

He is not.
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

User avatar
ed
Posts: 33438
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: Rhino of the Florida swamp
Has thanked: 460 times
Been thanked: 788 times

Re: California burning

Post by ed » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:28 pm

"sparks"


hmmmmm
Wenn ich Kultur höre, entsichere ich meinen Browning!

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 71785
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 3429 times
Been thanked: 1259 times

Re: California burning

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:31 pm

Trump's comment about "raking leaves" was fairly fatuous. <<== This is not an argument against good forest management.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8968
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 238 times
Been thanked: 144 times

Re: California burning

Post by xouper » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:51 pm

sparks wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:18 pm
xouper wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:47 pm
Here's yet another expert opinion:

Trump was right: California’s forests have been grossly mismanaged
This rather loosely implies Trump is an expert on forestry practices.

He is not.
It implies no such thing.

My point was that not all experts disagree with Trump.

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8968
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 238 times
Been thanked: 144 times

Re: California burning

Post by xouper » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:54 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:31 pm
Trump's comment about "raking leaves" was fairly fatuous.
Kind of like Swalwell's comment about using nuclear weapons against gunowners if they don't give them up to the government?

Are politicians no longer allowed to speak in terms of obvious sarcasm or to hyperbolate for rhetorical effect?

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8968
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 238 times
Been thanked: 144 times

Re: California burning

Post by xouper » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:04 pm

Here's another opinion about where some of the blame belongs:
Jerry Brown Might Be in BIG TROUBLE Over Wildfires; Here’s Why…
By Steve Straub, November 19, 2018 at 8:29am

California Governor Jerry Brown might just land in hot water over the recent spate of wildfires as his veto of the 2016 Wildfire Mitigation bill comes under increased scrutiny, per the Washington Free Beacon:
California Gov. Jerry Brown’s 2016 veto of wildfire-related bill is facing new scrutiny in the wake of the deadliest, most destructive week of fires in state history.

The measure would have required the state government’s public utility commission to work with municipalities to ensure that energy companies do all they can to prevent fires in high-risk areas.

When he vetoed the bill, Brown dismissed it as unnecessary . . .
. . . Forbes explains the problem in California’s forests:
The federal government controls 46 percent of California’s land, much of it managed by the U.S. Forest Service.

In the three decades before 1990, foresters harvested 10-12 billion board feet of timber from national forests every year.

By 2013, restrictive environmental policies cut that to 2.5 billion.

While the harvest declined, so too did tree thinning and the clearing of brush and diseased trees.

The Trump administration is reversing that trend with the biggest harvest of trees on federal land in 20 years, selling 3.4 billion board feet on some 3 million acres—still just a third of the typical pre-1990 harvest.
So there you have it.

While wildfires have always been a part of life in California, the severity of this years fires are mainly a human caused tragedy.

Environmentalists and Governor Jerry Brown are directly to blame for this nightmare.
:Popcorn:

User avatar
ed
Posts: 33438
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: Rhino of the Florida swamp
Has thanked: 460 times
Been thanked: 788 times

Re: California burning

Post by ed » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:16 pm

Didn't someone suggest this already? With data?

fag.
Wenn ich Kultur höre, entsichere ich meinen Browning!

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8968
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 238 times
Been thanked: 144 times

Re: California burning

Post by xouper » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:29 pm

This was from earlier this year:
Gov. Jerry Brown proposes easing logging rules to thin forests

By Bay Area News Group and Paul Rogers, August 23, 2018

Faced with the worst summer fire season in 10 years, Gov. Jerry Brown is proposing broad new changes to California’s logging rules that would allow landowners to cut larger trees and build temporary roads without obtaining a permit as a way to thin more forests across the state.

The proposal — which has the support of the timber industry but is being opposed by more than a dozen environmental groups . . .

Under Brown’s proposal, private landowners would be able to cut trees up to 36 inches in diameter — up from the current 26 inches — on property 300 acres or less without getting a timber harvest permit from the state, as long as their purpose was to thin forests to reduce fire risk. . .
So why aren't we hearing more about that in the mainstream media? Instead, all we hear (mostly) is that it's global warming and Trump's fault.

Does it seem as though Governor Brown agrees with Trump (at least partly) that better forest management would help mitigate future fires?

And what happened to AB 425, you ask?

On August 29, 2018, it was effectively killed by Senator Galgiani.

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8968
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 238 times
Been thanked: 144 times

Re: California burning

Post by xouper » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:33 pm

ed wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:16 pm
Didn't someone suggest this already? With data?
Of course someone did. I was just piling on adding to it. What's yer problem?

User avatar
ed
Posts: 33438
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: Rhino of the Florida swamp
Has thanked: 460 times
Been thanked: 788 times

Re: California burning

Post by ed » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:54 pm

I feel slighted.

And sad.

Never mind, I'll get over it.

Eventually.
Wenn ich Kultur höre, entsichere ich meinen Browning!

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 71785
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 3429 times
Been thanked: 1259 times

Re: California burning

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:49 pm

ed wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:16 pm
Didn't someone suggest this already? With data?

fag.
It was the smug way he said it as if he had just figured it out himself because he is so smart.

A style I dislike. OK? Except when I do it. :P
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
Anaxagoras
Posts: 22000
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am
Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan
Has thanked: 1429 times
Been thanked: 1280 times

Re: California burning

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:00 am

xouper wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:29 pm
This was from earlier this year:
Gov. Jerry Brown proposes easing logging rules to thin forests

By Bay Area News Group and Paul Rogers, August 23, 2018

Faced with the worst summer fire season in 10 years, Gov. Jerry Brown is proposing broad new changes to California’s logging rules that would allow landowners to cut larger trees and build temporary roads without obtaining a permit as a way to thin more forests across the state.

The proposal — which has the support of the timber industry but is being opposed by more than a dozen environmental groups . . .

Under Brown’s proposal, private landowners would be able to cut trees up to 36 inches in diameter — up from the current 26 inches — on property 300 acres or less without getting a timber harvest permit from the state, as long as their purpose was to thin forests to reduce fire risk. . .
So why aren't we hearing more about that in the mainstream media? Instead, all we hear (mostly) is that it's global warming and Trump's fault.

Does it seem as though Governor Brown agrees with Trump (at least partly) that better forest management would help mitigate future fires?

And what happened to AB 425, you ask?

On August 29, 2018, it was effectively killed by Senator Galgiani.
If there's a silver lining to this years' fires it may be that there will finally be the political will to do something about it. Too bad it always takes a tragedy for people to wake up and see what needs to be done.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

User avatar
Skeeve
Posts: 10549
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:35 am
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 82 times

Re: California burning

Post by Skeeve » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:25 am

xouper wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:51 pm
sparks wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:18 pm
xouper wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:47 pm
Here's yet another expert opinion:

Trump was right: California’s forests have been grossly mismanaged
This rather loosely implies Trump is an expert on forestry practices.

He is not.
It implies no such thing.

My point was that not all experts disagree with Trump.
Well xouper, the article you cited makes some good points...
...
Trump is right. We do have a management problem on the state, federal level and local levels (in that order). This can be broken down into six key areas where we have failed: Access, logging, grazing, endangered species, water quality and air pollution.
...
Endangered species: The constant “discovery” of “subspecies” by scientists whose funding and careers depend on finding them is dubious at best. Often good management practices are halted at the order of a court when one of the “subspecies” is “discovered” on a parcel of land.
That brings to mind every parody of a dickless EPA bureaucrat I can imagine...YMMV.
Image

:lol:
Then Skank Of America could start in...