Winter is coming

Drama queens must check their tiaras at the door.
User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 33079
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1627 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Grammatron » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:58 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:So far today I have seen articles both on NPR's site and The Guardian about how the article writer has no intentions on ever watching Game of Thrones.

I never watched The Mod Squad, even as a kid. It was mostly because I didn't get the channel it was on when I was growing up, but I bet I could puke out a 2000 word essay on why I never watched it and never will. I wonder if they would publish that. Or does it have to be a currently popular show to expect a medal for never watching it.
People use to brag about not owning a TV.

User avatar
Nyarlathotep
Posts: 47574
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm
Has thanked: 773 times
Been thanked: 1426 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Nyarlathotep » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:00 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Nyarlathotep wrote:So far today I have seen articles both on NPR's site and The Guardian about how the article writer has no intentions on ever watching Game of Thrones.

I never watched The Mod Squad, even as a kid. It was mostly because I didn't get the channel it was on when I was growing up, but I bet I could puke out a 2000 word essay on why I never watched it and never will. I wonder if they would publish that. Or does it have to be a currently popular show to expect a medal for never watching it.
People use to brag about not owning a TV.

But they didn't have the internet to REALLY get the word out about how edgy they were.
Bango Skank Awaits The Crimson King!

User avatar
Anaxagoras
Posts: 20942
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am
Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan
Has thanked: 1331 times
Been thanked: 1111 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Anaxagoras » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:03 am

Nyarlathotep wrote:So far today I have seen articles both on NPR's site and The Guardian about how the article writer has no intentions on ever watching Game of Thrones.

I never watched The Mod Squad, even as a kid. It was mostly because I didn't get the channel it was on when I was growing up, but I bet I could puke out a 2000 word essay on why I never watched it and never will. I wonder if they would publish that. Or does it have to be a currently popular show to expect a medal for never watching it.
It's weird. Here's one example of the genre:

http://metro.co.uk/2017/07/17/why-i-don ... l-6776119/

TBH, my own interest in the series feels like it's beginning to wane a bit but I've come this far so I'll see it through to the end. Somehow the endings always seem kind of disappointing. It was like that for me with Battlestar Galactica. Loved that show, hated the ending. I hope at least that this one has a decent conclusion, but I feel like I shouldn't hold out too much hope.

I think most of his points are dumb other than that a lot of it has been spoiled already (since I never watch it live I have to be careful to avoid spoilers but I still manage to see at least headlines about the latest show every time). If you don't want to watch it that's fine. I really don't need you to explain your reasons why.

For some reason, certain people complain that there are rape scenes in the show, but nobody complains about all the killing. It's like the scolds who say you can never make a joke about rape. Also he thinks the fans are obnoxious. But it's hard to take seriously a critique of a show from someone who never saw the show.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 66668
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 3237 times
Been thanked: 2049 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Doctor X » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:49 am

Funny, on the "rape scenes," one the actors complained about was Jamie and Cersei. In the book he does not do that at all. So I think the scene from the current episode where Cersei takes Jamie was sort of a "correction" of that.

The other one is a departure from the book, but it is a very good scene--Ramsey's rape of Sansa. It turns from her and focuses on Theon Greyjoy Reek's reaction. Very powerful--though the actress joked at one of the Comicons that it was "too bad" the camera moved since, "it was some of my best work!"

You do not see Sansa raped. You do not see Danny raped. Even "Shame. Shame. Shame." is not seen, only heard.

But some people need to be offended.

It is odd, before reading this, I enjoyed an anime based on a classic story of historical Japanese Original fiction. Lots of blood here. One Japanese Ori[Stop it!--Ed.] commentator noted the sad irony that two characters in love could not be depicted making love; however, a woman could be depicted being disemboweled.

Long ago, in one of his early examinations of language, George Carlin noted you could not say a word that meant "make love" on television but you could say, "rape," "dismember," et cetera.

Image

--J. "No One Cares That You 'Fucked a Bear!'" D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!
31

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 21826
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 345 times
Been thanked: 351 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by gnome » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:24 am

Hmm didn't they show it with Dany?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 66668
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 3237 times
Been thanked: 2049 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Doctor X » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:42 pm

Well, they apparently jokingly call it "sex positions" from the first season but you do not see her actually getting violated. Of course, she was married, so it is not rape. . . .




What?

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!
31

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 21826
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 345 times
Been thanked: 351 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by gnome » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:03 pm

Maybe the editing was good enough that I'm not remembering how soon the discretion shot kicked in?

Either way, I'm spending way too much time on this detail.

What interested me more is how much Dany's scene matched standard barbarian romance novel tropes and seemed to cause less objection among viewers. The only conclusion I draw from that is, whatever standard ought to be applied, it is difficult to nail down specifically. Some depictions bother people more than others--and almost any rule proposed has an "exception" that caused little objection.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 66668
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 3237 times
Been thanked: 2049 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Doctor X » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:20 pm

Well, the difference is between the subject matter and whether or not it is depicted. "We all know what happened."

I then compose a long treatise on how they depict the development of Danny and Khal's relationship only to feel skeevy and realize I am spending too much time on this detail as well. Image

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!
31

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 33079
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1627 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Grammatron » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:01 pm

Say what you will about GRRM, but he wrote without using cheap tropes and miracles. Yet this season of GoT is just that. Characters showing up magically where they need to be and victories happening because they forward the story and nothing more. Feels like endless fan service.

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 21826
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 345 times
Been thanked: 351 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by gnome » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:05 pm

See, I don't feel that way at all. I think pretty much everything going on has been well established. Maybe some exceptions but no worse than prior seasons.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 66668
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 3237 times
Been thanked: 2049 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Doctor X » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:27 am

Yeah, I am not sure there is a lot of
Image
so much as trying to move the plot towards its conclusion. The series is "cleaning house" with a number of characters certainly.

There are still some odd questions like why The Wall has not contacted Winterfell.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!
31

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 33079
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1627 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Grammatron » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:24 am

Fan Service isn't just tits, it's also gratuitous use of story elements or visuals elements (still not just tits).

The siege of High Garden would have taken perhaps years to accomplish. In the show it happens in minutes. They didn't even bother to write a clever reason, or betrayal of some sort. They just ride up and take the place. The show has quickly jettisoned writing with realistic elements in favor of plot moving at breakneck speed toward its conclusion. Certainly it's subjective to say whether it's good or bad, but the change has undeniably taken place.

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 21826
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 345 times
Been thanked: 351 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by gnome » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:53 am

Why should it take years, when
Spoiler:
Olenna's allies joined the Lannisters?
I took it as so much of a curb-stomp it would have messed up the pacing to portray. I took it as requiring a few days at best.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 33079
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1627 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Grammatron » Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:55 am

gnome wrote:Why should it take years, when
Spoiler:
Olenna's allies joined the Lannisters?
I took it as so much of a curb-stomp it would have messed up the pacing to portray. I took it as requiring a few days at best.
For the same reason Blackfish had to surrender Riverrun last season. And it wasn't nearly as formidable nor well provisioned.

Also I can list further absurdities.
Spoiler:
All of Euron's actions are impossible. He can't intercept the ships headed for Dorne, return to King's Landing, head out again and then intercept the fleet at Casterly Rock. And that's forgoing the fact that Theon and Asha ran off with the fleet so Euron shouldn't have more than a dozen ships anyway.

All these actions do is serve to get rid of chess pieces Daeny has. But it's done in a very sloppy way that might as well be "a wizard did it".
Where is before, such is the case last season with Riverrun, Jamie had to threaten, release and threaten Edmure again for him to order Blackfish to open the gates and surrender. Or how Ramsey ordered Reek (Theon) to lie at Moat Cailin in season 4 so the Iron Borne surrender only to get slaughtered. Castles are not easy to take and up until this season GoT honored that reality.

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 66668
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 3237 times
Been thanked: 2049 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Doctor X » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:04 am

Maybe they left a door open?

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!
31

User avatar
Nyarlathotep
Posts: 47574
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm
Has thanked: 773 times
Been thanked: 1426 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Nyarlathotep » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:18 pm

I have to agree, now that it is being written by TV people from scratch rather than letting Martin's work dictate the twists and turns, this season seems more like standard fantasy fare than ever. It really seems to have lost the ability to surprise me. It has also lost its moral grayness and now has easily identifiable bad guys and good guys. It really has, sadly, gone past its expiration date.

Not that I won't watch it, just that it isn't as good as it once was.
Bango Skank Awaits The Crimson King!

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 33079
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1627 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Grammatron » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:27 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:I have to agree, now that it is being written by TV people from scratch rather than letting Martin's work dictate the twists and turns, this season seems more like standard fantasy fare than ever. It really seems to have lost the ability to surprise me. It has also lost its moral grayness and now has easily identifiable bad guys and good guys. It really has, sadly, gone past its expiration date.

Not that I won't watch it, just that it isn't as good as it once was.
Completely agree.

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 21826
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 345 times
Been thanked: 351 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by gnome » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:56 pm

I am contemplating one plot point that would be nicely morally grey--this is not confirmed anywhere I've read (and if it were I'd spoiler it), but I think the Lannisters are getting information from inside Dany's camp. And not from someone evil either.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 66668
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 3237 times
Been thanked: 2049 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Doctor X » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:21 pm

That is a common theory, though I suppose you could explain it away.

Obviously people know Danny is at The Rock. Yuron Greyjoy knows Yara and Theon have to sail south to get anywhere, and he waits for them. Cersi and Jamie know that Tyrion considered himself the heir to Casterly Rock. They may suspect that Tyrion never learned from Tywin that the House of Lancaster Lannister is broke. So they surmise they will try to take Casterly Rock for the point of it, to surprise the Lannisters, and get the gold. Yuron waits to destroy the rest of the fleet.

So they can recon this however they want.

Part of it, also, is knowing that nothing ever is easy. Tyrion over-estimated his military knowledge. The Unsullied are good at "taking things" but not planning battles, let alone wars.

The "smartest things" to do, it would seem, is to have gone after Kings Landing not to sack/burn it but threaten it. Meanwhile, destroy the Lannister army with the dragons.

But then Danny was never a smart ruler; she could never pacify the territories she took without slaughtering a crapload of people.

Anyways, it would be shocking that Cersi's maester would not have spies.

One side thing that has not been answered from both the books and the shows: what the hell was A Man doing in Kings Landing in the first place? He allowed himself to be imprisoned then sent on the way to the Wall. He never goes to the Wall as far as anyone knows.

What was his mission?

Now in the books--this is really not a spoiler--Sam makes it to Old Town, basically. There appears to be a Faceless Man who removes a few people and may be trying to use Sam--book basically ends so we do not know what he is doing. Fans like to think THAT Faceless Man is Jaquen H'Gar. The leader of the Faceless in Bravos, in the books, is not JH but the show was willing to do some fan service since everyone, including the other actors, loved Tom Wershcirhnizleurp.

What is the Faceless Men's "mission?" Clearly, King Robert did not hire them--"too expensive" to take out Danny. Cersi and the rest--including Tyrion--do not seem to be aware of their activity as in using them for anything.

As far as we know, FM kill people. They want information . . . information . . . inFORMATION! [Stop it!--Ed.] which they then use to . . . kill people. So I suppose a FM could be used to tour Westeros to gather information on Kings Landing, then the interior, and all of that. The one operating in Old Town is, however, taking out people.

Probably something that will not be dealt with in the show, but if the FM have an agenda. Some fans have wondered if a FM replaced one of Danny's people: the favorite is Milliessilia . . . Milless . . . Greyworm's Frustration.

Why?

Onion Knight notices she has the wrong accent.

But would a FM have the wrong accent?




Yes, I am avoiding work, why do you ask?

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!
31

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 21826
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 345 times
Been thanked: 351 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by gnome » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:38 pm

I'll just say it... I think Missandei may be going behind Dany's back even without being an impostor. My theory is she fears for the freed slaves back home unless Dany returns and rules there instead. When Dany finds out and orders Missandei arrested/executed/Dracarys'd, who will Greyworm side with?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2