Winter is coming

Drama queens must check their tiaras at the door.
User avatar
Nyarlathotep
Posts: 47542
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm
Has thanked: 770 times
Been thanked: 1420 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Nyarlathotep » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:05 pm

My personal theory is that Varys wants Dany and Cersei to basically crush each other in hopes of creating a Westeros without kings and queens and such. He has made quite a point several times of how he is on the side of the people of Westeros, not any particular monarch.

He may be the father of Westerosi democracy or something along those lines. Or their first true anarchist...
Bango Skank Awaits The Crimson King!

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 32849
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1571 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Grammatron » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:12 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:My personal theory is that Varys wants Dany and Cersei to basically crush each other in hopes of creating a Westeros without kings and queens and such. He has made quite a point several times of how he is on the side of the people of Westeros, not any particular monarch.

He may be the father of Westerosi democracy or somesuch.
Yes, he looks like a man who believes that supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
[quote="pillory"]jokes aren't funny....seriously thinking......

seriously thinking might be funny....but it's not joke[/quote]

User avatar
Nyarlathotep
Posts: 47542
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm
Has thanked: 770 times
Been thanked: 1420 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Nyarlathotep » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:13 pm

Great, now next week I am going to see a shot of Dragonstone or Casterly rock or whatever other castle they show first and think "Let us not go to (wherever), it is a silly place"
Bango Skank Awaits The Crimson King!

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 21763
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 336 times
Been thanked: 341 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by gnome » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:15 pm

Oddly enough, I take Varys at face value when he explained himself in E2 of this season. He's confident in his ability to make or depose monarchs, and will continue to promote ones he likes and get rid of ones he doesn't. One of the parts that blew me away was that he was able to declare it openly to Dany and actually sound honorable. I think he really does consider her the future of Westeros. or he would not have entrusted her to know this about him.
Last edited by gnome on Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Nyarlathotep
Posts: 47542
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm
Has thanked: 770 times
Been thanked: 1420 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Nyarlathotep » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:15 pm

"How do we know Cersei is the queen?"

"She doesn't 'ave any shit on 'er"
Bango Skank Awaits The Crimson King!

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 21763
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 336 times
Been thanked: 341 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by gnome » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:16 pm

That wouldn't work for Joffrey...

BURN!!!
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Nyarlathotep
Posts: 47542
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm
Has thanked: 770 times
Been thanked: 1420 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Nyarlathotep » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:18 pm

gnome wrote:Oddly enough, I take Varys at face value when he explained himself in E2 of this season. He's confident in his ability to make or depose monarchs, and will continue to promote ones he likes and get rid of ones he doesn't. One of the parts that blew me away was that he was able to declare it openly to Dany and actually sound honorable. I think he really does consider her the future of Westeros. or he would not have entrusted her to know this about him.
It's just that, to me, it would be a eight season shaggy dog story if, when they rolled credits for the final epsiode, Westeros was pretty much the same as it was at the beginning of the first episode just with different butts in the various thrones.
Bango Skank Awaits The Crimson King!

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 66423
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 3186 times
Been thanked: 2017 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Doctor X » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:37 pm

She oddly seems the most likely.

Unless they pull out Some Random Dude, the others are:
  • 1. Tyrion
    2. Varis
    3. Greyworm
and I think you can erase all of them. The Book Varis is clearly devoted to the plan to bring back the Targaryans--whatever. He is the one who has Uncle Lannister killed near the end of the last book announcing his loyalties. He has the tools to do it, certainly, but him turning at this stage would be too contrived.

So her. The only issue I have is she rarely, if ever, argues with Danny. She argues with Tyrion, certainly, and others. I would expect her to raise a point about protecting the cities she left behind, or how will Former Danny Boy-Toy will keep the former slaves free without dragons and a navy.

I think, instead, if Onion Knight's observation is not a wed hewing, she is a "long con." Recall that King Robert, then the Lannisters have been watching her since the beginning. It is clear in the book Robert--being cheap--sends the Sorrowful Men after her rather than the Faceless. In a rare moment of clarity, Joffrey argues with Tywin over his dismissal of her threat. Obviously, Mormount was, initially, a plant.

What if she was? She seems to show up after Mormount stopped serving Baratheon/Lannister. Now she could have had the opportunity to stick a knife in her or something, but I think her job was simply providing intelligence. It is all speculation, but unless Some Random Dothraki rears his head, she seems to be "it."

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 21763
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 336 times
Been thanked: 341 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by gnome » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:37 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:
gnome wrote:Oddly enough, I take Varys at face value when he explained himself in E2 of this season. He's confident in his ability to make or depose monarchs, and will continue to promote ones he likes and get rid of ones he doesn't. One of the parts that blew me away was that he was able to declare it openly to Dany and actually sound honorable. I think he really does consider her the future of Westeros. or he would not have entrusted her to know this about him.
It's just that, to me, it would be a eight season shaggy dog story if, when they rolled credits for the final epsiode, Westeros was pretty much the same as it was at the beginning of the first episode just with different butts in the various thrones.
I agree I would prefer it not to end that way.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Nyarlathotep
Posts: 47542
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm
Has thanked: 770 times
Been thanked: 1420 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Nyarlathotep » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:44 pm

Oh, and I just saw someone bring up a point on Quora that I think is another point in favor pf Varys being up to something shady here.

How the hell, with his spy network, would Varys NOT have any inkling where Euron's big ol' distinctive navy is? Not a clue. Not an inkling.

Unless he didn't WANT to know. Or knew but didn't want to say.
Bango Skank Awaits The Crimson King!

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 32849
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1571 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Grammatron » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:47 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:Oh, and I just saw someone bring up a point on Quora that I think is another point in favor pf Varys being up to something shady here.

How the hell, with his spy network, would Varys NOT have any inkling where Euron's big ol' distinctive navy is? Not a clue. Not an inkling.

Unless he didn't WANT to know. Or knew but didn't want to say.
Personally I'll put this into shitty writing category.
[quote="pillory"]jokes aren't funny....seriously thinking......

seriously thinking might be funny....but it's not joke[/quote]

User avatar
Nyarlathotep
Posts: 47542
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm
Has thanked: 770 times
Been thanked: 1420 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Nyarlathotep » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:48 pm

Could be either.
Bango Skank Awaits The Crimson King!

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 21763
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 336 times
Been thanked: 341 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by gnome » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:10 pm

I think he lost his spy network in King's Landing. An episode of last season shows Qyburn taking them over, IIRC.
Of course, he wouldn't want to admit that.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 32849
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1571 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Grammatron » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:15 pm

gnome wrote:I think he lost his spy network in King's Landing. An episode of last season shows Qyburn taking them over, IIRC.
Of course, he wouldn't want to admit that.
That's exactly my point. That scene was weak but at least it provided foundation for future action or lack there of.
[quote="pillory"]jokes aren't funny....seriously thinking......

seriously thinking might be funny....but it's not joke[/quote]

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 66423
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 3186 times
Been thanked: 2017 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Doctor X » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:39 pm

There are lots of problems like "Do not give critical information to people who need it."

Common problem in some series. Like why Bran does not explain himself to Sansa, or the Guys at the Wall letting Winterfell and John Snow know about Bran being alive. They . . . lose . . . their crows?

Same with Sansa "springing" Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale on him at a critical juncture.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 21763
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 336 times
Been thanked: 341 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by gnome » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:46 pm

Image

I love this meme too much.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 32849
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1571 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Grammatron » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:50 pm

Doctor X wrote:There are lots of problems like "Do not give critical information to people who need it."

Common problem in some series. Like why Bran does not explain himself to Sansa, or the Guys at the Wall letting Winterfell and John Snow know about Bran being alive. They . . . lose . . . their crows?

Same with Sansa "springing" Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale on him at a critical juncture.

--J.D.
Yup. All stem from lack of GRRM source material to build around, IMO.
[quote="pillory"]jokes aren't funny....seriously thinking......

seriously thinking might be funny....but it's not joke[/quote]

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 21763
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 336 times
Been thanked: 341 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by gnome » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:50 pm

I read a theory once (and I'm sure I'm not describing it quite correctly) that plots relying on a failure to communicate have a background in Victorian literature, where characters would withhold vital information because they would rather suffer whatever calamity than have their reputation scandalized. It claimed that some of the same basic storylines, with the context stripped, have made it to modern films, even ones in the age of cellphones where a thirty second phone call could have resolved the plot.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Nyarlathotep
Posts: 47542
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm
Has thanked: 770 times
Been thanked: 1420 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Nyarlathotep » Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:24 pm

That is one of my gripes about a LOT of movies and books. Where someone doesn't disclose important information for a stupid reason. My favorite is when the reason is "There is no time to explain it" when explaining it would take all of 10 seconds
Bango Skank Awaits The Crimson King!

User avatar
Captain
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:47 pm
Title: Captain
Location: On the verandah in the cool breeze.
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 31 times

Re: Winter is coming

Post by Captain » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:41 am

gnome wrote:I read a theory once (and I'm sure I'm not describing it quite correctly) that plots relying on a failure to communicate have a background in Victorian literature, where characters would withhold vital information because they would rather suffer whatever calamity than have their reputation scandalized. It claimed that some of the same basic storylines, with the context stripped, have made it to modern films, even ones in the age of cellphones where a thirty second phone call could have resolved the plot.
Some folks you just can't reach...
You run one time, you got yourself a set of chains. You run twice you got yourself two sets. You ain't gonna need no third set, 'cause you gonna get your mind right.