Peace through strength

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Abdul Alhazred
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Peace through strength

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:49 pm

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Re: Peace through strength

Post by Witness » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:31 am


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Re: Peace through strength

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:51 am

The point of the OP is that it was never fired in anger.

Sort of like all nuclear weapons after WWII.
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Re: Peace through strength

Post by Witness » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:07 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:51 am
The point of the OP is that it was never fired in anger.
Yeah, dissuasion, good point. But then you should have commented, and selected the relevant part of the video (I just skimmed it). You don't think we're going to sit through 26 mn of blather, do you?

In one of the comic magazines I read in my youth there was a strip about armament through the ages, and the character presenting the various innovations in killing tools always concluded: "With such a weapon war becomes impossible." :P

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Re: Peace through strength

Post by ed » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm

In The Great Illusion, Angell's primary thesis was, in the words of historian James Joll, that "the economic cost of war was so great that no one could possibly hope to gain by starting a war the consequences of which would be so disastrous."[3] For that reason, a general European war was very unlikely to start, and if it did, it would not last long.[4] He argued that war was economically and socially irrational[5] and that war between industrial countries was futile because conquest did not pay. J. D. B. Miller writes: "The 'Great Illusion' was that nations gained by armed confrontation, militarism, war, or conquest."[6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Illusion

In this case the ultimate weapon was economics. Back in the day the Swiss created a phalanx in depth, row upon row of long spears sticking out of an impenitrable interlocking network of shields.
Image
That is until the mounted knight demonstrated that the wall could be broken (I mean, a ton of rapidly moving pissed off horse and man) and once it was broken, the Swiss were just scared little chocolate eaters 1o feet below a pissed off knight.
Great set up at the Wallace give a feel
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A guy 5'6" would be 6" or more shy of the withers. And he looks up and sees that. The effect is better at the Wallace.
Anyway, that worked until
Image
Which worked until
Image
Which was swell until
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and his modern brothers
Image
and
Image
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Re: Peace through strength

Post by Anaxagoras » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:32 pm

ed wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
In The Great Illusion, Angell's primary thesis was, in the words of historian James Joll, that "the economic cost of war was so great that no one could possibly hope to gain by starting a war the consequences of which would be so disastrous."[3] For that reason, a general European war was very unlikely to start, and if it did, it would not last long.[4] He argued that war was economically and socially irrational[5] and that war between industrial countries was futile because conquest did not pay. J. D. B. Miller writes: "The 'Great Illusion' was that nations gained by armed confrontation, militarism, war, or conquest."[6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Illusion
I think I see a few problems with that thesis, the first one being the presumption that human beings will always behave rationally.

However, it's hard to argue that any country involved in World War I benefitted thereby.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: Peace through strength

Post by ed » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:39 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:32 pm
ed wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
In The Great Illusion, Angell's primary thesis was, in the words of historian James Joll, that "the economic cost of war was so great that no one could possibly hope to gain by starting a war the consequences of which would be so disastrous."[3] For that reason, a general European war was very unlikely to start, and if it did, it would not last long.[4] He argued that war was economically and socially irrational[5] and that war between industrial countries was futile because conquest did not pay. J. D. B. Miller writes: "The 'Great Illusion' was that nations gained by armed confrontation, militarism, war, or conquest."[6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Illusion
I think I see a few problems with that thesis, the first one being the presumption that human beings will always behave rationally.

However, it's hard to argue that any country involved in World War I benefitted thereby.
We did. Our opposition killed each other and gave up their empires.
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Re: Peace through strength

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:08 pm

ed wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:39 pm
We did. Our opposition killed each other and gave up their empires.
That would be WWII.

Wilson's WWI war aim failed in that congress rejected the League of Nations.
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Re: Peace through strength

Post by Anaxagoras » Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:03 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:08 pm
ed wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:39 pm
We did. Our opposition killed each other and gave up their empires.
That would be WWII.

Wilson's WWI war aim failed in that congress rejected the League of Nations.
All the men who died or lost limbs didn't benefit in either war.

I think as far as actually gaining territory as a result of World War I, Japan was actually the main beneficiary. They were on the side of the allies against the Germans at the time, and they took over a number of German colonies in the far east and pacific.
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Re: Peace through strength

Post by Witness » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:01 am

ed wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
Back in the day the Swiss created a phalanx in depth, row upon row of long spears sticking out of an impenitrable [sic] interlocking network of shields.
Image
As your own illustrations show, they had no shields. From Wikipedia:
The Swiss wore little armour, unlike the ancient phalanx warriors of old, dispensing with greaves or shield, and donning only a helmet and a relatively light reinforced corselet.
Here you can see them at the battle of Sempach (1386), still using mostly halberds:

Image
(Hans Rudolf Manuel (1525 - 1571), reworked by Hans Ulrich Wägmann (1583 - ca. 1648), Joseph Balmer (1828 - 1918))

So there was a strong element of mobility to this neo-phalanx:
In November of 1315, the Holy Roman Empire marched 5,000 armored knights into Switzerland looking to put an end to this whole Swiss Confederacy bullshit. A mere 2,000 Swiss rolled boulders down a hill, charged down in full phalanx formation right into a formation of heavily-armed enemies that outnumbered them two-to-one, hacked the Austrians to pieces, and drowned any prisoners by throwing them through a hole into a frozen, ice-covered lake. A couple years later, some jerks from the Kingdom of Burgundy (part of present-day France) tried to assert their dominance over Switzerland, marched 20,000 peasant conscript assholes across the Alps, then watched in horror as just 1,500 Swiss arranged in two gigantic bricks of pikemen plowed into their formation, broke their lines in half, surrounded them somehow, drove them from the field, and drowned 80 Austrian and Burgundian barons in a river. In 1386 they did it again, beating 6,000 Austrian dismounted knights with 1,200 unarmored pikemen, beating the Holy Roman Empire so severely that the Hapsburg Dynasty made a 50-year peace treaty with Switzerland because he didn't want to deal with it anymore.

The best example of Swiss pike badassitude is the Battle of St. Jakob an der Birs, which took place on August 24, 1444. Basically, after that 50-year peace treaty expired, the Emperor once again tried to assert his power over the Confederacy. He allied with King Louis XI of France, who sent 30,000 men into Switzerland to pound the Swiss into submission. Louis came across a small group of Swiss outside a little monastery – somewhere between 1,200 and 1,600 pikemen. But these guys came here to fight, and they meant business.

Louis XI had the best armor in the world. The most experienced knights. The toughest warriors. And he outnumbered the Swiss fifteen-to-one.

The 1,500 Swiss took a look at Louis's 30,000-man army, formed up into one square of pike, and charged.

They charged.
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/index.cgi?id=31684493594
ed wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
That is until the mounted knight demonstrated that the wall could be broken (I mean, a ton of rapidly moving pissed off horse and man) and once it was broken, the Swiss were just scared little chocolate eaters 1o feet below a pissed off knight.
Not that simple. Louis XI cited above finally had to use crossbows to kill them off.

Another endearing characteristic of the Swiss was that, contrary to medieval mores, they never took prisoners – especially not mercenaries. Can't tolerate competition, right? :mrgreen:

Here is a description of tactics & evolution of the armament: https://erenow.com/ww/warfareinthemedievalworld/27.html

And here some Swiss at the time of the battle of Nancy (no shields!), where Charles the Bold ended badly:

Image

I see they were already making the same noise than at the Basel carnival… :x