Get over yourself, Johnny Football

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Cool Hand
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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Cool Hand » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:18 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Cool Hand wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
Cool Hand wrote: Evidence on his height? Watch any televised game and compare him to other players on the field. Also, look at Manziel's head in relation to Nick Saban's head while they are standing next to each other in the pic in the first post. Saban is 5'9" and 170 lbs. There is no fucking way Manziel is taller than him by more than an inch, if that. Manziel is too small to play QB the NFL. Is that being petty about his character? Hell no. It has nothing to do with it. It does have everything to do with his prospects as a QB in the NFL, however, which is the context in which I brought it up. I didn't do it to be petty; I did it because it is relevant to whether he has a future in the NFL. Obviously he recognized its relevance too, or he wouldn't be lying about his height. He claims to be 6 feet tall. Again, look at the photo with 5'9" Saban and tell me with a straight face that Manziel is 3 inches taller than him.

CH
Seriously? You want to use video and photographs of unknown perspective and manipulation as evidence? Disappointing.
Oh, for fuck's sake, Grammy, have you even watched the guy play live on television? I have, and after a couple of dozen hours of live, unmanipulated TV video watching, it's clear he's much shorter than he claims.

CH
The only way to show his height is go up to him with a ruler. Everything else is speculation.
Well, yeah, if you want to take the "debate" about his height to Clausian levels. Otherwise, it's a damn good educated guess than he's a good bit shorter than he claims. Unless you insist that you don't know Tom Cruise is a short fucker because you personally have not stood next to him with a yardstick or ruler.

I don't think you're that obstinate.
The whole height thing and being good in the NFL is not something I entirely agree with personally, but that's a different conversation all together.
It is a different discussion, I suppose, but I think the reality of playing QB in the NFL in 2013 and 2014 is that you need to be about as tall as your short to medium receivers. I think 6'2"+ is getting to be the norm. There are several guys who are 6'3" and 6'4", and even 6'5" at QB. And the younger ones are not skinny or wiry. It's a passing league, and passing QBs are getting taller.

CH
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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Grammatron » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:49 pm

Cool Hand wrote:
Well, yeah, if you want to take the "debate" about his height to Clausian levels. Otherwise, it's a damn good educated guess than he's a good bit shorter than he claims. Unless you insist that you don't know Tom Cruise is a short fucker because you personally have not stood next to him with a yardstick or ruler.

I don't think you're that obstinate.

CH
The college stats give his height, the only way to disprove that is to measure him using an independent body. Since your claim that the college measurement is wrong has no such evidence to support itself, I am forced to dismiss it. I don't think I am being difficult here in asking for evidence.

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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Cool Hand » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:16 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Cool Hand wrote:
Well, yeah, if you want to take the "debate" about his height to Clausian levels. Otherwise, it's a damn good educated guess than he's a good bit shorter than he claims. Unless you insist that you don't know Tom Cruise is a short fucker because you personally have not stood next to him with a yardstick or ruler.

I don't think you're that obstinate.

CH
The college stats give his height, the only way to disprove that is to measure him using an independent body. Since your claim that the college measurement is wrong has no such evidence to support itself, I am forced to dismiss it. I don't think I am being difficult here in asking for evidence.
And Tom Cruise's publicist has claimed he's 5'10" for years. I'm sure you believe that too.

CH
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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Grammatron » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:38 pm

Cool Hand wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
Cool Hand wrote:
Well, yeah, if you want to take the "debate" about his height to Clausian levels. Otherwise, it's a damn good educated guess than he's a good bit shorter than he claims. Unless you insist that you don't know Tom Cruise is a short fucker because you personally have not stood next to him with a yardstick or ruler.

I don't think you're that obstinate.

CH
The college stats give his height, the only way to disprove that is to measure him using an independent body. Since your claim that the college measurement is wrong has no such evidence to support itself, I am forced to dismiss it. I don't think I am being difficult here in asking for evidence.
And Tom Cruise's publicist has claimed he's 5'10" for years. I'm sure you believe that too.

CH
Why is asking for evidence invite hyperbole from you?

You don't think Manziel is the height he claims to be and that's fine. But you have no evidence for your opinion.

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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Cool Hand » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:46 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Cool Hand wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
Cool Hand wrote:
Well, yeah, if you want to take the "debate" about his height to Clausian levels. Otherwise, it's a damn good educated guess than he's a good bit shorter than he claims. Unless you insist that you don't know Tom Cruise is a short fucker because you personally have not stood next to him with a yardstick or ruler.

I don't think you're that obstinate.

CH
The college stats give his height, the only way to disprove that is to measure him using an independent body. Since your claim that the college measurement is wrong has no such evidence to support itself, I am forced to dismiss it. I don't think I am being difficult here in asking for evidence.
And Tom Cruise's publicist has claimed he's 5'10" for years. I'm sure you believe that too.

CH
Why is asking for evidence invite hyperbole from you?

You don't think Manziel is the height he claims to be and that's fine. But you have no evidence for your opinion.
Are you asking me if I've personally measured the dude? Of course not. Don't be silly, Mr. Larsen.

I am using the best evidence available other than what Texas A&M's PR department puts out on official literature and their website. I find the official listing of 6' or 6'1" (depending on where you look) to be not credible on its face when I've seen the guy with my own eyes standing right next to people I know are that height or slightly taller and he's no where near as tall as them. I also know for a fact that Nick Saban is 5'9" and that I've seen him standing next to Saban not only in the photo I linked to, but also on live, unaltered, unmanipulated television. They are the same height, or no more than an inch or so within being the same height by my estimation, and I'm not using hyperbole, but a very keen eye and a healthy dose of skepticism of the official stats listed for him. Surely you understand that there is widespread inflating of such numbers for official publication, especially for smaller players, don't you? They have everything to gain and not much to lose (except credibility) by exaggerating their height and weights stats for little guys, and generally speaking, that's what they do. You even see that at the high school level.

Apparently, nothing short of my personally measuring the guy with a NIST issued meter stick or calibrated laser measuring device and confirmed by two independent Notary Publics will convince you otherwise.

CH
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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Grammatron » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:00 pm

Cool Hand wrote: Are you asking me if I've personally measured the dude? Of course not. Don't be silly, Mr. Larsen.
Ouch, low blow. No, I am not asking you this at all. I am asking this: is there a reason -- other than your own personal opinion and observation -- to doubt what Texas A&M lists as Manziel's official height. If there is a reason, what evidence do you have?

If all you have is your own, personal observation, I am sorry but that is not good enough for me and this conversation is getting a little too silly.

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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Cool Hand » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:11 pm

Image

It became silly the moment you suggested I was drinking Kool Aid in admiring Nick Saban, his record, his coaching philosophy, and his work ethic. Those are all well documented.

As for my being dubious about Manziel's claimed height, of course all I have to go on is my own personal doubting of the claimed stats, but that's based on my own observations of him live on TV and in photos standing next to other people. Come to think of it, that's better evidence than I have for believing that Tom Cruise is not in fact 5'10", as he and his publicists claim. After all, I've only seen him in highly edited and digitally manipulated films and strategically posed photos. And still, I would bet everything I own he's shorter than 5'7".

CH
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And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:48 am

Based on a Google image search, I would say he appears to be shorter than 6 feet.

http://sicollegefootball.files.wordpres ... =610&h=460

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_ro ... 1375712630
(With Lebron James, listed as 6'8". Compare the height of Lebron's eyes to Manziel's. Must be at least 10 inches.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc- ... anziel.jpg
(With 70-year-old Davey Johnson, listed as 6'1". But after the age of 40, people lose half an inch in height per decade.)
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Cool Hand » Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:59 am

Anaxagoras wrote:Based on a Google image search, I would say he appears to be shorter than 6 feet.

http://sicollegefootball.files.wordpres ... =610&h=460

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_ro ... 1375712630
(With Lebron James, listed as 6'8". Compare the height of Lebron's eyes to Manziel's. Must be at least 10 inches.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc- ... anziel.jpg
(With 70-year-old Davey Johnson, listed as 6'1". But after the age of 40, people lose half an inch in height per decade.)
That last picture gives a good indication as well that he's not six feet tall, and it doesn't even require a comparison to whatever height Mr. Johnson is today. Look at Johnny's head and how it is proportioned to the rest of his visible body. Although head sizes vary somewhat, generally speaking head to torso proportion can give a pretty reliable estimate of height. Knowing lots of dudes 6 feet+ and how their heads compare in size to their torsos on average, it is again highly suspect that Johnny Manziel is that tall.

His head to torso ratio looks a look closer to mine than to a 6 footer, and I'm 5'9" (and 170 lbs, so I'm the same size as Nick Saban and can relate to how Johnny compares while he's standing next to Saban). My money is that Johnny is no taller than 5'10", and I think that may be stretching it a bit. Also, if he is that height or close to it, there is no fucking way that guy weighs 210 lbs, as his official stats list. He's no more than about 180, 185 tops. At my most muscular about 11 years ago, I was a lean 196 with a 46" chest and a 35" waist, and I was enormous compared to him. Even if he really were 6 feet tall, he still couldn't possibly weigh 210 and be as skinny and wiry as he is.

CH
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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Grammatron » Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:34 am

I just checked, Manziel is still listed as 6'1"

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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:25 am

Grammatron wrote:I just checked, Manziel is still listed as 6'1"
If he's 6'1" then I'm at least 6'3".

Are you saying that he really is 6'1"? I'm not sure what point you're arguing here.

I actually don't care either way myself. I'm not a fan or, as CH seems to be, a hater of him. I'm just trying to be objective.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Rob Lister » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:27 am

He sez he's 6-0 exactly. He looks shorter. I think he is shorter. By his own admission, 6-1 is out.

I don't think it matters all that much. He can either throw the ball over the rushing defensive line or he can't (but can he see over them?). His passes will have to have more arc. So they'll hang longer, and that's a bad thing, but probably insignificantly different from a taller player. Math would tell us exactly how long. I refuse to relearn trig and calculus for this thread or whatever ballistics is necessary so ...

I'll post this pic to deflect from the fact that I'm too old and stupid for that shit.

Image

Just like Johnny deflects from his munchkin-like height.

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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Cool Hand » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:46 pm

Grammatron wrote:I just checked, Manziel is still listed as 6'1"
And Tom Cruise's publicist still insists Tom is 5'10". It's the same point, Grammy. They both have every incentive to lie about their height impairedness.

And Al Sharpton still insists to this very day that Tawana Brawley was raped by a bunch of white cops and a white prosecutor. And he hasn't paid a dime of the judgment against him by the white prosecutor who successfully sued him for defamation of character. Johnny Conchran paid some money of his own in a show of solidarity with Sharpton, but Sharpton himself has paid nothing and will never pay or admit that he lied.

Some people are persistent in their lies and they have incentive not to come clean.

Oh, and BTW, Anax, I'm not a hater. I just don't like the guy.

CH
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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Grammatron » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:35 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Grammatron wrote:I just checked, Manziel is still listed as 6'1"
If he's 6'1" then I'm at least 6'3".

Are you saying that he really is 6'1"? I'm not sure what point you're arguing here.

I actually don't care either way myself. I'm not a fan or, as CH seems to be, a hater of him. I'm just trying to be objective.
My point is he is what Texas A&M says until shown otherwise. I don't accept photographs because they are sometimes manipulated for dramatic effect.

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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Cool Hand » Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:11 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:
Grammatron wrote:I just checked, Manziel is still listed as 6'1"
If he's 6'1" then I'm at least 6'3".

Are you saying that he really is 6'1"? I'm not sure what point you're arguing here.

I actually don't care either way myself. I'm not a fan or, as CH seems to be, a hater of him. I'm just trying to be objective.
My point is he is what Texas A&M says until shown otherwise. I don't accept photographs because they are sometimes manipulated for dramatic effect.
Fair enough. We'll learn eventually, maybe this year, maybe next, maybe even Johnny's senior year, whether scouts buy the claim that he's 6' or 6'1". I've made it clear that I don't, and I freely admit that it's based on hard to determine accurately and precisely comparisons on live TV broadcasts and photographs, which are not always reliable and can be subject to manipulation, both high tech and low tech (shoot from a deceptive angle or perspective, or with a distorting lens, for example). I also pointed out that the head to torso ratio is a somewhat reliable indication of a rough estimate of a healthy, young adult's height, and I also base my judgment of his height on that, again based on photographs I've seen of him and his moving image on television. It's not the best possible evidence, which is indeed to measure him on level ground with a properly calibrated measuring stick, but no one is advocating it's necessary to do that in order to guesstimate his height.

I suppose the chief difference between Grammy and me on this narrow subject is that Grammy doesn't question the stat Texas A&M publishes and lists for him, and I do. I know that height and weight numbers for high school and college players are routinely fudged to make them look better than they are, and I suspect very strongly this is the case for Manziel. As for cold, hard objective and unassailable evidence to the contrary, I have none, and I'm pretty sure Grammy understands that would not be reasonably feasible to obtain without going to College Station myself to measure the guy or get the sworn affidavit of someone in the Texas A&M organization who has. I contend Grammy's unquestioned acceptance of the published figure is dogmatically unreasonable, given that it is such a common practice to fudge those numbers, especially for smaller players, and goddammit, the guy looks small for an elite college football QB.

CH
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And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by RCC » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:06 am

Combine won't lie. Of course, Russell Wilson isn't exactly Kareem and he gets it done. Vick would be incredible if he had a work ethic, a durable body, and a PETA membership This turkey is tall enough, mostly it is an issue of whether he can keep up with a NFL playbook, not get hurt, and not rape a back judge.

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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Pyrrho » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:33 pm

Johnny Football's fate may be to end up in Cleveland.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.s ... ana_2.html
"I haven't sat and studied him, but who wouldn't like him? He's fun to watch, he makes plays, and he's as much of a playmaker as I've seen on SportsCenter as anybody.
and
He said Manziel's lack of height -- he's listed at 6-1 but might be closer to 6-0 -- won't be a deterrent. He cited the success of shorter quarterbacks Drew Brees (6-0) of the Saints and Russell Wilson (5-11) of the Seahawks, who have both won Super Bowls.

"Everybody wants the prototypical receiver, the prototypical quarterback, the prototypical tackle, but no matter what you say, there's no absolute,'' he said. "People have succeeded at every height and speed, everybody's done it. Russell just adds another guy to prove those people who speak in absolutes wrong just like Drew Brees has. You've got to look at what a guy is. You never say this guy can't do it because of this.''
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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:32 am

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/johnny-man ... super-bowl
Johnny Manziel, former Texas A&M quarterback and Heisman trophy winner, said if he becomes a Cleveland Brown he will bring Cleveland a Super Bowl win.

In an interview with the Houston Chronicle Manziel said, ""If something happens, and it's the Cleveland Browns, I'm going to pour my heart out for the Dawg Pound and try to win a Super Bowl for Cleveland, I don't care if they've had 20 starting quarterbacks since 1999. I'm going to be the 21st and the guy that brought them the Super Bowl."
:dothewave:
The Browns currently have the fourth pick in this year's NFL draft.
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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Doctor X » Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:43 am

Many were speculating any potential QB would try to "pull a John Elway or Eli Manning" and basically refuse to be drafted by the Browns. More than one have stated that if he goes to a good organization, he may do well. If he goes to a dysfunctional organization like . . . Cleveland . . . the Jets . . . Oakland . . . the Yankees, he will probably flame out.

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Re: Get over yourself, Johnny Football

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:28 am

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.s ... e_mea.html
Manziel's official measurement at the NFL Scouting Combine Friday morning was 5-11 3/4, 207 pounds. That's small for an NFL quarterback -- especially in the brutal AFC North -- but scouts say he Manziel can easily add some bulk to his frame.
:Mockering:
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