Josh Gordon Suspe......Fuck that, let's talk about Ray Rice.

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Josh Gordon Suspe......Fuck that, let's talk about Ray Rice.

Post by Tiosylanyl » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:26 pm

Gordon suspension upheld.
Josh Gordon will miss the entire 2014 season following the NFL's announcement Wednesday that it has upheld the Cleveland Browns receiver's yearlong suspension for violating the league's substance-abuse policy.

Gordon's suspension is effective immediately, and he will have to apply for reinstatement following the season.
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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Doctor X » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:53 pm

Should have just knocked out his girlfriend/wife.








Too soon?

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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Grammatron » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:02 pm

Doctor X wrote:Should have just knocked out his girlfriend/wife.








Too soon?

--J.D.
Too irrelevant.

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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Doctor X » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:20 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Doctor X wrote:Should have just knocked out his girlfriend/wife.








Too soon?

--J.D.
Too irrelevant.
Ipse dixit but incorrect.

Sports Dudes are discussing the contradiction as we write. Now Gordon is an idiot. However, the extreme differences in punishment conveys the message that it is "better" to do what the Ravens player did.

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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Grammatron » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:57 pm

Doctor X wrote:
Grammatron wrote: Too irrelevant.
Ipse dixit but incorrect.

Sports Dudes are discussing the contradiction as we write. Now Gordon is an idiot. However, the extreme differences in punishment conveys the message that it is "better" to do what the Ravens player did.

--J.D.
I am sorry, but that thinking is disconnected from reality.

Gordon has repeatedly violated the NFL's substance-abuse policy. Gordon has also been arrested for DWI. Those are all tangible, indisputable actions that are covered by CBA with direct, recommended penalties.

Conversely, Ray Rice very likely assaulted his wife (then fiance) in an elevator. I say likely because there is no evidence, she refuses to testify, and while Rice apologized for the incident, he never clarified what exactly happened. Furthermore, he has not been convicted of anything of anything.

Now, is beating up someone unconscious worse than smoking weed? Fuck yeah. How about repeatedly smoking weed? Still Fuck yeah. Is it worse than DWI? Difficult to say, I would argue that on the face of it DWI is far worse, but that's just my opinion. Putting all of this together, Gordon's punishment seems appropriate.

It's simple for NFL to punish players who clearly violate a policy or a law. It's difficult to do so with someone where the details are not that clear.

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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Doctor X » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:07 pm

Grammatron wrote:I am sorry, but that thinking is disconnected from reality.
Ipse dixit but incorrect again.
Gordon has repeatedly violated the NFL's substance-abuse policy. Gordon has also been arrested for DWI. Those are all tangible, indisputable actions that are covered by CBA with direct, recommended penalties.
And the punishment for such should be greater than:
Conversely, Ray Rice very likely assaulted his wife (then fiance) in an elevator.
Now re-read your first sentence to yourself.

There is also evidence--there is a video.

One of the major complaints against the Commissioner--which further establishes why this controversy is "relevant"--is he does not put evidence out in the open. So if any imagined extenuating circumstances for a NFL player to beat a woman unconscious exists it would be seen. From a practical standpoint, the video of what happened inside the elevator will eventually get leaked. This will further undercut the Commissioner's position, unless, along with unicorns and show-ponies, it shows Ray Rice bravely defending himself against an onslaught which culminates in his fiance beating herself unconscious.

But that is not what he was suspended a mere two games for, of course.

As for the woman not cooperating, I am sure you are familiar with the documented behavior of some women in abusive relationships. The NFL is not a "court of law"--they do not rule based on evidence of guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt."

So you are left with that critical dichotomy, which is why the criticism and discussion proves relevant.

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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Grammatron » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:26 pm

I'm going to snip some stuff, if that removes any context you think is relevant, I apologize in advance.
Doctor X wrote: Now re-read your first sentence to yourself.

There is also evidence--there is a video.
There is no camera in the elevator. The camera was in the lobby and thus the video only shows the aftermath. In a court of law that would be circumstantial at best.
One of the major complaints against the Commissioner--which further establishes why this controversy is "relevant"--is he does not put evidence out in the open. So if any imagined extenuating circumstances for a NFL player to beat a woman unconscious exists it would be seen. From a practical standpoint, the video of what happened inside the elevator will eventually get leaked. This will further undercut the Commissioner's position, unless, along with unicorns and show-ponies, it shows Ray Rice bravely defending himself against an onslaught which culminates in his fiance beating herself unconscious.
If such video comes to light and it shows Ray Rice beating up his wife. I will hope he not only gets suspended from NFL for few years but serves actual jail time. I will also retract everything I've said.
But that is not what he was suspended a mere two games for, of course.

As for the woman not cooperating, I am sure you are familiar with the documented behavior of some women in abusive relationships. The NFL is not a "court of law"--they do not rule based on evidence of guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt."

So you are left with that critical dichotomy, which is why the criticism and discussion proves relevant.

--J.D.
I am familiar with the documented behavior, I was merely pointing out how the case lacks clarity.

You are right that NFL is not a court of law, but they do operate within their own set of rules. If there is no cut and dry version of what happened, then the public is forcing NFL to make an arbitrary ruling. This may open the door to force NFL to make other arbitrary rulings, or worse give this and future commissionaires power to arbitrarily punish players they do not like.

Bottom line, I just don't think that comparing these two cases is reasonable.

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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Doctor X » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:09 pm

Grammatron wrote:There is no camera in the elevator.
There were cameras in the elevator. That video has not been released. Of course, I cannot show it to you nor do I know the contents of it other than "what reports say," but let us pretend that, for some reason, the film is not available The camera was in the lobby and thus the video only shows the aftermath.
In a court of law
My turn to declare "irrelevant"--NFL is not a court of law. Recall Ben Rapesherburgler's suspension. Et cetera.
This is not a criticism regarding the failure to bring a legal proceeding against Rice. We both do not have the video from the elevator. Let us pretend is shows her hitting him, he hits her back, she is knocked out. She refuses to press any charges against him. A DA is faced with that has an uncooperative victim who will testify for the defense, a situation where someone is defending against assault. We can argue until we are pink in the prostate that he "used too much force" or "a man should NEVER hit a woman NO MATTER WHAT!!11!!" but defense attorneys will eat that alive.

In that made-up--possibly true--circumstance, the Comish should have stated that it was clear this was a domestic dispute that both parties engaged in. That, nevertheless, he needs to send a message that NFL players should not . . . blah . . . blah.

I "tangent" this because it can go on and on with wild speculation as to whether or not Rice needed to strike her to subdue her and, face it, this is a thread about Cleveland. Further, it has to do with the problem of a mixed message--NFL hates weed more than domestic violence.
If such video comes to light and it shows Ray Rice beating up his wife. I will hope he not only gets suspended from NFL for few years but serves actual jail time. I will also retract everything I've said.
I think I now recognize the problem: Being that I am a benevolent Clausian Worthy--and Biblically Qualified--Skeptic, I considered perhaps I "misremember'd" the detail of a video in an elevator. Atlantic casinos. They have videos EVERYWHERE partly for this very reason.
Police have obtained a videotape of Baltimore Ravens running back Ray Rice hitting his fiancee and knocking her unconscious at an Atlantic City casino, according to a report on SI.com.

In a different video, shown below and obtained by TMZ on Wednesday, Rice drags fiancee Janay Palmer from an elevator inside the casino Saturday.

SurrenderMonkeyTimes
Now that plays into the crap in my "Tangent" regarding making a successful prosecution.

The Comish and NFL are not the police. They have an option to suspend for as long at they want within some parameters defined in the collective bargaining agreement. In that case, I return to the initial point: it appears the NFL takes domestic violence to be less of a "threat to the Shield" than marijuana. To combat that, the Comish should have been far more specific with why only two games.

He did not.

Hence the criticism which is ongoing.
I am familiar with the documented behavior, I was merely pointing out how the case lacks clarity.
I understand that, but I think you are concentrating on legal clarity. This reminds me of apologists for the Roiders in MLB who claim "Clemens was proven INOCCENTS!!11!" Or, better perhaps, that technically the evidences--thanks--against A-Roid and others were "circumstantial." True for any legal proceeding. Not true for MLB.
If there is no cut and dry version of what happened, . . .
There is--there is the video in the elevator. Now, given the police/DA did not pursue a legal case, if we both assume there are extenuating circumstances or whatever we wish to dream up, the Comish and NFL should have stated and explained that.

This could even include the Comish stating that said fiance or fiancee denied the charges, that the video is unavailable to the NFL to review for whatever reason, so, therefore, their hands are "tied." I would argue, then, for a still longer suspension but at least the Comish would have firmer standing to argue.
Bottom line, I just don't think that comparing these two cases is reasonable.
And that is where you are wrong. And not just because of your choice in unfashionable footwear. BECAUSE of difference in penalties given the cases, it appears to not just rabid man-hatting video-game censoring self-importantly incompetent professional cry babies that the NFL considers use of a substance that is now legal in some altered states is MORE damaging than beating up a woman.

IF you are focusing on the legal aspects of the cases, I understand, yes, I do, your reticence. You see ambiguity on the second--Rice--and you see a long process of failing to comply to NFL rules. A Patriot is suspended for 4 games for legally using ritalin for his diagnosed ADHD. He has been taking prescribed ritalin since he were a wee spud. However, as he admits, he FAIL'd to file the proper paperwork for his prescription renewal. The rules are hard and "zero tolerance."

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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Doctor X » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:59 pm

And now, in a memo, Roger Goodell admits he screwed up.
Letter to Ownership wrote:At times, however, and despite our best efforts, we fall short of our goals, . . . We clearly did so in response to a recent incident of domestic violence. . . . My disciplinary decision led the public to question our sincerity, our commitment, and whether we understood the toll that domestic violence inflicts on so many families. I take responsibility both for the decision and for ensuring that our actions in the future properly reflect our values.

I didn't get it right.

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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Grammatron » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:32 pm

I got busy with work and personal stuff so I could not reply yesterday. I was going to do it today...but I did not think it would change anything as I think we have a difference of opinion. However, with the NFL taking some action today I think I should reply with something.

NFL can do whatever the fuck they want to do because they are a private organization. That certainly does not mean I support or agree with any or all of their actions. NFL/commissionaire felt that their action were appropriate at the time. The public disagreed and so they have changed their policy for the future. Still, it's not cut and dry " with consideration given to mitigating factors, as well as a longer suspension when circumstances warrant." What counts as a mitigating factor? Can anything that happened with Rice be counted as a mitigating factor? Would this count? "Police said Rice and fiancee Janay Palmer hit each other, and both were charged with simple assault -- domestic violence upon being arrested Saturday. The Ravens told USA TODAY Sports the pair 'returned home together after being detained.'"

However, all of that is meaningless because I only took issue with how the media (and you) chose to compare the two situations. They are not the same, at all. The only thing they have in common is that they involve NFL. There are no mitigating factors in Gordon's case. He broke the rules regarding substance abuse repeatedly, and was even arrested for DWI during the review process.

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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Doctor X » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:14 pm

Grammatron wrote:I got busy with work and personal stuff so I could not reply yesterday.
Evasion noted.

--jdReport

Here . . . have a chicken leg. . . .
. . . as I think we have a difference of opinion.
I think the difference is more that you looked at it as more of a legal matter where there has to be standards of evidence similar to a legal case, as well as two rules are separate issues, whereas I considered the message the NFL seemed to be sending to The Children!

Do you not care about . . . The Children?

Goodell's decision was a major cock-up. I was going to post--but the posts had gotten long and unClevelandlike--similar cases where a guy goes to jail for life for stealing a slice of pizza and Joe Moneybags gets four weeks in a country club for selling small children to North Korea as reactor shielding. Research shows there was no actual law against selling children as reactor shielding if you have financed a US Senator's reelection campaign and/or like Obama and the other guy committed his "third strike."

Analogous to this discussion, I would argue that while the law states "such and such" "the law is an ass" and needs to be changed since it appears the law cares more about slices of pizza than . . .


. . .



. . . wait for it . . .



. . . The Children!

You would, in turn, argue that the cases are irrelevant. From a legal standpoint you would be correct. However, I would argue that part of what would drive a new law to punish selling The Children as reactor shielding and changing a three-strikes law is both the appearance and reality of unfairness, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
NFL can do whatever the fuck they want to do because they are a private organization.
Not quite . . . see below.
That certainly does not mean I support or agree with any or all of their actions. NFL/commissionaire felt that their action were appropriate at the time. The public disagreed and so they have changed their policy for the future. Still, it's not cut and dry " with consideration given to mitigating factors, as well as a longer suspension when circumstances warrant." What counts as a mitigating factor?
Well, yeah, and the details are not completely available. For example, there are players who have committed >1 domestic violent incident in college. Should that count? I think "mitigating factors" are something like a guy losing his temper and slapping as opposed to kicking a door down and beating the living shit out of a woman.

Buuuuuuuutttttt . . . notice how problematic that discussion is. Does that somehow "lessen" slapping a woman? Particularly if you weigh 250+ lbs. Welcome to the quagmire! The Sports Duded to whom I am listening to currently are noting that Goodell is using a morals clause to rule without permission of the Player's Union. That being written, the Player's Union will have a very hard time "fighting" it or arguing for mitigation--see difficult paragraph above. As one Sports Dude put it, from a practical standpoint, the Players Union might have to take Goodell and the NFL to court.

If they are THAT stupid.
Can anything that happened with Rice be counted as a mitigating factor? Would this count? "Police said Rice and fiancee Janay Palmer hit each other, and both were charged with simple assault -- domestic violence upon being arrested Saturday. The Ravens told USA TODAY Sports the pair 'returned home together after being detained.'"
Well, that is the $37 ["37?"--Ed.] question. Goodell has seen the intraelevator ["Intraelevator?"--Ed.] "Inside the fucking elevator" video. Part of his amazing ability to dig himself deeper in a hole is he had hoped this would all go away and has refused to discuss it. So . . . it is anyone's guess. Searching and listening I have heard all sorts of wild speculation from she swung, missed him, and hit her head to he punched her in the face. Goodell would have done better if he answered yours and all of our questions: "what happened?"
However, all of that is meaningless because I only took issue with how the media (and you) chose to compare the two situations. They are not the same, at all.
Neither I nor most of the media of which I am aware ever claimed they were the "same thing," we claimed they were relevant. Same as if I give Listy a one-day suspension for . . . well . . . being Listy and ban you forever then have your house demolished while calling your boss to inform them of that "incident involving Thailand and an underage ungulate" because you suggest the Dolphins might win the season opener against the Patriots. They may not be the "same crimes"; however, the reaction to the second suggests that your "crime" is worse than Listy's.

Come to thing of it, as bad as Listy is for, well, being Listy to suggest the Dolphins could beat the Patriots? Bad example.

Level of punishment, severity of punishment, should suggest/represent/match/be . . . like . . . connected to the severity of the crime.

Now this is interesting:
There are no mitigating factors in Gordon's case. He broke the rules regarding substance abuse repeatedly, and was even arrested for DWI during the review process.
Gordon is a dumbass. No argument there. However, what "da peoples" are arguing is that the NFL should not respond so harshly to marijuana, "which parts of the country have legalized" as more than one commentator and talking-head has noted--and I realize two states do not a federal law unmake and, no, the NFL does not have to pay attention to that, particularly when it has responded so mildly to domestic violence.

Further, few I am aware of have argued that Gordon should have a lesser penalty other than those who feel the NFL should completely revisit its stance on marijuana. Leave that aside. Most are arguing the penalty for Rice should have been more severe. That is the point. In fact, prior this current situation, Gordon would have received a lesser punishment for punching his wife/girlfriend/unwilling to submit to your cis-male stereotypes.

It finally sank into Goodell's head this appearance and reality of unfairness.

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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Doctor X » Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:37 pm

AAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNDDDDDDD . . . the video in the elevator has been leaked.

--J.D.
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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Grammatron » Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:02 pm

Doctor X wrote:AAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNDDDDDDD . . . the video in the elevator has been leaked.

--J.D.
He almost kills her when her head hits the hand rail inside the elevator. Fuck him.

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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Grammatron » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:37 pm

The Ravens have cut Rice.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11489 ... o-surfaces

Interesting tidbit here though
Earlier Monday, league spokesman Brian McCarthy regarding the video: "We requested from law enforcement any and all information about the incident, including the video from inside the elevator. That video was not made available to us and no one in our office has seen it until today."

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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Rob Lister » Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:28 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Doctor X wrote:AAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNDDDDDDD . . . the video in the elevator has been leaked.

--J.D.
He almost kills her when her head hits the hand rail inside the elevator. Fuck him.
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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Grammatron » Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:40 pm

Rob, I am not sure I get your reply.

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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Rob Lister » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:38 pm

Grammatron wrote:Rob, I am not sure I get your reply.
What's to get? It's just the screen capture of his fist connecting to her jaw.

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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Doctor X » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:41 pm

Been busy.

I heard early screams from Sports Dudes that he needed to be cut.

Currently, a number of Sports Dudes are claiming the NFL did see the video as well as the prosecutors. Now Sports Dudes are calling for Godell to be fired.

To be fair, I have not seen--have not had time to check--confirmation that Godell and the prosecution saw that video. I would be very surprised that the police/prosecution did not since it is a casino's video, there was no reason for the casino to withhold it, and, if requested by warrent, that is obstruction.

Just In: the Prosecutor had told a newspaper that "that video will never be seen!" So he saw it prior to allowing the deal with Rice to avoid prison and actual prosecution.

All I can say is "good." Before he was cut, in the wee hours, a player called for him to be banned from the NFL. I can get the name if anyone cares.

--J.D.
Last edited by Doctor X on Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Grammatron » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:42 pm

Rob Lister wrote:
Grammatron wrote:Rob, I am not sure I get your reply.
What's to get? It's just the screen capture of his fist connecting to her jaw.
You quoted me and just posted an image, I just wanted it clarified. It's actually far more violent than just his fist connecting to her jaw.

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Re: More Crushing Disappointment for Cleveland

Post by Doctor X » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:51 pm

Wow, this is exploding.

"Banned from the NFL"

So as a few commentators are screaming, "How do you go from two games to being banned?" No one believes Godell did not see that video. Calls for resignation.

Anyways . . . I have a nice article, but I am going to ask The Captain to allow this to be moved into its own topic. This thread can then return to the Tragedy that is Cleveland.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!
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