get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

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xouper
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get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by xouper » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:19 pm

The Law of Unintended Consequences in action:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/change-gender-identification-insurance-alberta-1.4754416 wrote:
Alberta man changes gender on government IDs for cheaper car insurance
Reid Southwick · CBC News · Posted: Jul 20, 2018 1:24 PM MT | Last Updated: July 26

He says he saved almost $1,100
He changed his birth certificate and driver's license merely to save a huge chunk of coin on his car insurance, not because he identifies as a female.

:LOL2: :bigthumb:

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:24 pm

The market will fix this problem by raising everybody to the male rate.
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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Giz » Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:18 pm

Lots of countries already forbid the use of gender in setting individual premiums (whether car insurance or pension annuity), including US and EU.

“Insurers will no longer be able to offer women drivers reduced rates, or give male pensioners better incomes, following the introduction of new EU rules on gender equality.

While it is still unclear how the rules, which came into force on 21 December, will hit people's pockets, male pensioners could be left up to £10,000 worse off in retirement, and some female drivers will pay 40% more for car insurance.”

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/ ... surance-eu


Note, we actuarial types still understand that it matters so evaluating a company pension plan as a whole will use appropriate male and female mortality tables but for determining individual benefits, you gotta use unisex assumptions.

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Skeeve » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:00 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:24 pm
The market will fix this problem by raising everybody to the male rate.
That is when the real women (CIS-Gendered-White-Feminist-with-blue-hair-and-unshaven-armpits)
will start complaining... just wait and see!
Then Skank Of America could start in...

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by RCC: Act II » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:05 pm

Fraud exists.

Yawn.

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by RCC: Act II » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:22 pm

Also, it amuses me that transphobics think that this supports their side of the matter.

Please, all you lunkheads, exploit market inefficiencies by legally changing your gender to save a few bucks.

Now try to ban gay marriage again, or pass some bullshit bathroom bill.

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:36 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:05 pm
Fraud exists.

Yawn.
I'm with RCC when it comes to this particular case, but it opens up something else.

What if it turns out "gender" differences in auto liability risk actually correlate with genetics or possibly genitalia?
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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by xouper » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:21 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:22 pm
Also, it amuses me that transphobics think that this supports their side of the matter.

Please, all you lunkheads, exploit market inefficiencies by legally changing your gender to save a few bucks.

Now try to ban gay marriage again, or pass some bullshit bathroom bill.
Nice red herring you got there, RCC.

It amuses me that some people mistakenly think this thread is about (or is intended to support) transphobia.

RCC: Act II wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:05 pm
Fraud exists.

Yawn.
Your personal boredom does not refute or mitigate the point made in the opening post.

Suppose I use your "argument" against some point you were trying to make? Let's say it somehow involves X. Then I respond by saying, "X exists. Yawn." When used against you, I assume you can see the irrelevance of that kind of response.

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by gnome » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:27 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:36 pm
RCC: Act II wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:05 pm
Fraud exists.

Yawn.
I'm with RCC when it comes to this particular case, but it opens up something else.

What if it turns out "gender" differences in auto liability risk actually correlate with genetics or possibly genitalia?
In that case they would likely just ask for both biological sex and gender identity and use the one they need. A boring, but likely effective solution.
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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by gnome » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:27 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:36 pm
RCC: Act II wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:05 pm
Fraud exists.

Yawn.
I'm with RCC when it comes to this particular case, but it opens up something else.

What if it turns out "gender" differences in auto liability risk actually correlate with genetics or possibly genitalia?
In that case they would likely just ask for both biological sex and gender identity and use the one they need. A boring, but likely effective solution.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by gnome » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:29 pm

For example, AIDS researchers quickly learned to stop asking a person's sexual orientation and instead surveyed whether the person had same sex encounters.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:45 pm

gnome wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:27 pm
In that case they would likely just ask for both biological sex and gender identity and use the one they need. A boring, but likely effective solution.
Or more likely, stop rating by sex or whatever you want to call it.

The insurance companies don't rate by race. Is that because there is no correlation whatever with liability risk?
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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:49 pm

gnome wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:29 pm
For example, AIDS researchers quickly learned to stop asking a person's sexual orientation and instead surveyed whether the person had same sex encounters.
In the most recent permutation of politically driven classification, "orientation" isn't even a thing any more.

I forget exactly what bad thing that word is supposed to imply about gay people.
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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by RCC: Act II » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:01 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:36 pm
RCC: Act II wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:05 pm
Fraud exists.

Yawn.
I'm with RCC when it comes to this particular case, but it opens up something else.

What if it turns out "gender" differences in auto liability risk actually correlate with genetics or possibly genitalia?
For profit insurance is never going to be without this sort of garbage.

Insurance is gambling, and the way you win at gambling is to get an edge. Deep actuarial studies are the edge.

At some point that bumps up against basic human dignities and freedoms when the insurance company needs the info to exploit the edge. Smoke? Like pop tarts? Exercise? Sex habits? Sports fan? Wear glasses? Watch porn? Pick your nose?

There needs to be lines drawn somewhere. (I'd of course say socializing it is the logical move. Universal healthcare and a strong disability safety new eliminates a ton of what insurance is covering anyway. Get rid of medical costs and lost future earnings and jury verdicts get cut down to size quite a bit. However, that obviously would lead to gulags.)

Invasion of privacy via huge data collection is the next frontier in fighting for individual dignity. Our laws are still based around 18th century assumptions of how life works. We are having trouble coming to terms with how the industrial revolution brought about changes in how things work much less how the information age will further warp things.

But that's a different issue.

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by RCC: Act II » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:15 pm

xouper wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:21 pm
RCC: Act II wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:22 pm
Also, it amuses me that transphobics think that this supports their side of the matter.

Please, all you lunkheads, exploit market inefficiencies by legally changing your gender to save a few bucks.

Now try to ban gay marriage again, or pass some bullshit bathroom bill.
Nice red herring you got there, RCC.

It amuses me that some people mistakenly think this thread is about (or is intended to support) transphobia.
The tactic where it is claimed that bringing up stuff that is commonly used to support transphobia (or any other garbage point of view) is just sharing info has also become boring to me. Your "law of unintended consequences" and the thumbs up in support of fraud pretty much establishes that the point here was to paint those who pursue trans-friendly policies as naive.

Bad faith bullshit, pure and simple.

RCC: Act II wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:05 pm
Fraud exists.

Yawn.
Your personal boredom does not refute or mitigate the point made in the opening post.

Suppose I use your "argument" against some point you were trying to make? Let's say it somehow involves X. Then I respond by saying, "X exists. Yawn." When used against you, I assume you can see the irrelevance of that kind of response.
Some guy lies on a government document to save money. Unless you want to grow some balls and just come out and say what you mean instead of doing it in a passive aggressive way so that you can spin away from any criticism by pointing out the lack of a clearly stated position... then...

Yawn

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by RCC: Act II » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:24 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:49 pm
gnome wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:29 pm
For example, AIDS researchers quickly learned to stop asking a person's sexual orientation and instead surveyed whether the person had same sex encounters.
In the most recent permutation of politically driven classification, "orientation" isn't even a thing any more.

I forget exactly what bad thing that word is supposed to imply about gay people.
Not anything bad about gay people. That is more about not considering sexual gender preference as a static defined category at all.

I mean, if one wants to get rid of gender definitions, the idea that sexual preferences can be defined just doesn't work.

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Giz » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:29 pm

Maybe require a blood test for car insurance, and adjust rates according to testosterone level. No invasive questions about gender required!

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:41 pm

Giz wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:29 pm
Maybe require a blood test for car insurance, and adjust rates according to testosterone level. No invasive questions about gender required!
That would implicitly discriminate against pre-op (or no-op) trans women, and would be seen as a sneaky way to implement such discrimination.

Seriously what's wrong with having a gender blind risk pool?

Insurance isn't gambling, it's risk sharing.
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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by Giz » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:52 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:41 pm
Giz wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:29 pm
Maybe require a blood test for car insurance, and adjust rates according to testosterone level. No invasive questions about gender required!
That would implicitly discriminate against pre-op (or no-op) trans women, and would be seen as a sneaky way to implement such discrimination.

Seriously what's wrong with having a gender blind risk pool?

Insurance isn't gambling, it's risk sharing.
Sure, society can subsidize the cost of young male drivers. But it is a real phenomenon (even if it would be impolite to judge them as a group by age and sex).

As an aside, it is a refreshing change to see RCC taking the side of the patriarchy and insisting that it is best for society if women pay more than their true cost in order to subsidize men.

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Re: get cheaper car insurance by indentifying as a woman

Post by corplinx » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:00 pm

Testosterone makes you less risk averse.

Men are more likely to do intentionally stupid shit while driving.