Anti-vaxxers in power

Ever had it before? Well you got it again.
Anaxagoras
Posts: 29501
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am
Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan

Re: Anti-vaxxers in power

Post by Anaxagoras »

Ben Trovado wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:14 pm
Anaxagoras wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:13 am There's an argument to be made that people who don't get vaccinated aren't just putting their own health at risk, but also increasing the risk for others. Kinda like why we don't let people drink and drive.

Recent example in the news:

Veteran dies of treatable illness as COVID fills hospital beds, leaving doctors "playing musical chairs"
Is South Texas full of patients that have turned down vaccines, or from the 20%40% of the people coming into the country and being set loose that are positive for COVID?

However, if a relatively high percentage of hospitalized cases are for low risk people -- say under 40 with no co-morbidities -- who nonetheless end up n hospital, then I'd say the point is stronger. Have we any idea is that is the case?
I suppose that answering that question definitively would require access to lots of patient data, which I don't have. I would be interested in the answer though.

I think at this point that if you are an American adult and you haven't been vaccinated yet, it's probably not because you haven't had the opportunity. It seems like a no-brainer that hospitals would not be as overwhelmed as they are if more people had availed themselves of that opportunity.
Ben Trovado
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:08 pm
Title: Ex Avenger

Re: Anti-vaxxers in power

Post by Ben Trovado »

Anaxagoras wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:16 pm
Ben Trovado wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:14 pm
Anaxagoras wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:13 am There's an argument to be made that people who don't get vaccinated aren't just putting their own health at risk, but also increasing the risk for others. Kinda like why we don't let people drink and drive.

Recent example in the news:

Veteran dies of treatable illness as COVID fills hospital beds, leaving doctors "playing musical chairs"
Is South Texas full of patients that have turned down vaccines, or from the 20%40% of the people coming into the country and being set loose that are positive for COVID?

However, if a relatively high percentage of hospitalized cases are for low risk people -- say under 40 with no co-morbidities -- who nonetheless end up n hospital, then I'd say the point is stronger. Have we any idea is that is the case?
I suppose that answering that question definitively would require access to lots of patient data, which I don't have. I would be interested in the answer though.

I think at this point that if you are an American adult and you haven't been vaccinated yet, it's probably not because you haven't had the opportunity. It seems like a no-brainer that hospitals would not be as overwhelmed as they are if more people had availed themselves of that opportunity.
That is not illogical, I certainly grant you -- my concern is, though, that the "overwhelm the system" part of the argument to justify the mandate has a lot of potentially conflating problems:

- older persons and those with co-morbidity not getting vaccinated would be more likely to be hospitalized, I would think. But the mandate burdens younger, otherwise healthy persons equally.

- illegal immigrants, especially in Texas, have been allowed in almost without restriction. The same people mandating citizens to get the vaccine (presumably because the system is being overwhelmed) are actually creating the problem through the sheer numbers of people from other countries coming in. Yet the emphasis is on restricting citizens, who may only be a marginal problem by comparison (Would the system be overrun if it was just healthy citizens not getting it? If not, is using hospital capacity as justification simply a cynical ploy?)

- new variants for COVID may be ignoring the vaccines. Is the lack of a vaccination even a causative element in that case (i.e., are the variants a significant number of new admissions)? I do not know the numbers, but it seems odd that the latest spikes in hospitalizations comes at the time these new variants are hitting the news as well.

- is there a distinction to be made between a 25 y.o. otherwise healthy person and someone over 65 with heart conditions? The vaccines are not riskless - is there some point at which vaccine hesitancy makes sense for an individual? Do we override their decision, regardless?

Overall, don't have a strong opinion against a vaccine mandate, but I still can't say that I am really in favor it, despite being in favor of the vaccines themselves.

Nevertheless, you've raised a good point to think on further (I will try to look at some numbers on the issues above this evening if I can), and I appreciate the reasonable (and thoughtful) response.