hyperloop

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Rob Lister
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hyperloop

Post by Rob Lister »

Inside the Hyperloop: the pneumatic travel system faster than the speed of sound

It is called “The Hyperloop” and, according to the designer, it will be a revolutionary “fifth mode” of transport, eclipsing trains, planes, boats and automobiles.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/n ... sound.html

So, the billionaire behind this has a track record for success.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Elon+Mu ... hannel=rcs

I can't imagine getting a return on the dollar. But it would probably be cheaper than high-speed rail.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Rob Lister »

twice as fast as an airplane.

1000 mph?

maglev.

while technologically possible, i remain more than skeptical.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Cool Hand »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Elon Musk totally copied Alfred Ely Beach. :P

http://images.nycsubway.org/articles/beachportal.jpg
That dude on the right is totally about to have his left arm taken off. He's gonna need a doctor and a lot of blood really soon.

CH
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Anaxagoras »

He believes the Hyperloop could be built for a tenth of the cost and deliver passengers between the two cities in just 30 minutes, compared to three hours for the bullet train.
:lol:

I mean, c'mon. How can anyone take that seriously?

Maybe there is something to the idea, but these things always, always cost a lot more and take longer than they say they will.

And it's pneumatic? Really? Gonna have to read the article but I'm already doubtful.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Anaxagoras »

The mercurial, fictional character of Tony Stark, played by Robert Downey Jr in the Iron Man films, is reputedly based on him.
Really? Iron Man and his alter ego Tony Stark are older than Musk. :?
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Re: hyperloop

Post by no one in particular »

Anaxagoras wrote:
The mercurial, fictional character of Tony Stark, played by Robert Downey Jr in the Iron Man films, is reputedly based on him.
Really? Iron Man and his alter ego Tony Stark are older than Musk. :?
I keep seeing folks get this confused. This is mostly due to poor writing in these articles. Perhaps if it had said "as played by" instead of "played by."

Because as it turns out, Jon Favreau and RDJ did indeed model RDJ's on-screen portrayal after Musk.

Evidences.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Anaxagoras »

Well now you can see his plan for yourself:

http://www.spacex.com/hyperloop

http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/file ... 130812.pdf
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Rob Lister »

Having only browsed it front to back, I'm not hating it yet; nothing stands out as ludicrous. The logic is sound. The math I presume is correct.

One notable outlay he doesn't address is political graft. But I can understand that.

Here's a bold statement near the front:
Amortizing this capital cost over 20 years and adding daily operational costs gives a total of
about $20 USD (in current year dollars) plus operating costs per one-way ticket on the passenger Hyperloop.
That's a tad unclear (it looks like a double entry for operational costs) but I'll attribute that to a editing mistake on the part of the the technical writer.

Anyway, compare with $115 for auto, $158 for air, and a [purely] theoretical $105 for HSR.

I will read more.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Rob Lister »

First real issue:
Just as aircraft climb to high altitudes to travel through less dense air, Hyperloop encloses the capsules in a reduce pressure tube. The pressure of air in Hyperloop is about 1/6 the pressure of the atmosphere on Mars.
You propose to maintain a weak vacuum in 400 miles of tube?

Which brings up another issue: if when the vacuum fails, what is the impact on the tubes in the tunnel.

Which brings up another issue: if a pod or a tube fails, how to you accomplish egress?

These issues may be covered later. I'm reading slow now.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Rob Lister »

Okay, having read the whole thing.

1) As a whole, the thesis is amateur hour. It serves as an overview of an idea, but not much else. I suppose as an idea-man, he'll leave the details to the engineers. He's soliciting responses from anyone and everyone via email.

Good luck with that.

If I were to send him a suggestion, it would be to hire a professional technical writer.

I suppose this is not intended for anything other than popular consumption. Billionaire though he may be, he has no intention of building this. He may build a miniature-scale proof of concept. He'll get back to us in 2020 or so.

Will it be bigger or smaller than Abdul's Tyco setup? Complete with nature scenes and HO-scale plastic cows roaming the meadows beneath the pylons? Or maybe adapting a slot-car set will better conceptualize the concept. I'm envisioning 3" PVC tubing around the perimeter of one of his mansions.

Color me unimpressed. not with you abdul. I'm always impressed with you.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by no one in particular »

Rob Lister wrote:First real issue:
Just as aircraft climb to high altitudes to travel through less dense air, Hyperloop encloses the capsules in a reduce pressure tube. The pressure of air in Hyperloop is about 1/6 the pressure of the atmosphere on Mars.
Which brings up another issue: if a pod or a tube fails, how to you accomplish egress?
That means the pressure in the tube is about 100 pascals. Or 7.5x10-1 torr. Sure, that is indeed quite easy to maintain with readily available mechanical pumps. But if there was a gasket failure leading to a venting pod...well, they'd be problems. The good news is that you'd don't have to worry whether you should put the oxygen mask on yourself or your child first. You'll both freeze to death in seconds.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by DrMatt »

Hm, Freeze? seems like a killer case of the bends, more likely
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Re: hyperloop

Post by no one in particular »

Admittedly, seconds is an exaggeration. Although if the leak in the pod is catastrophic, you're only going to last a few seconds before you loose consciousnesses. My comment is based upon what I've observed when we have a water leak in our coating chambers. Even though the process environment is 300 degrees C, several gallons of water have no problem freezing solid in just a few seconds. But the good news is that skin is a fairly decent gasket.

Here's a story of a guy who survived his suit venting at 1 psi (about 50 torr, so quite a bit higher pressure than we're talking here) for about 15 seconds.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Rob Lister »

I'm having a discussion about this at Technology Review. Assuming a catastrophic (but not explosive) pressure failure of a pod, exposure to this near vacuum becomes fatal at some point between 1 and 2 minutes (projectile vomiting and defecating is almost immediate). An explosive failure almost ensures fatality. The oxygen masks would be useful in small leak scenarios, little else.

One opinionator suggests that the whole 400 miles of tube can be pressurized in far less than that; a matter of seconds. I can't argue because the actual design complete with things like the specs on emergency pressurization valves is utterly mythical.

I'm wondering more about actual egress of a tube full of 40 or so disabled pods. I got stuck for an hour on a Ferris Wheel once. Upside down. In the rain. I cried like a girl.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by no one in particular »

Rob Lister wrote:One opinionator suggests that the whole 400 miles of tube can be pressurized in far less than that; a matter of seconds. I can't argue because the actual design complete with things like the specs on emergency pressurization valves is utterly mythical.
This wholly depends on the size, number and locations of the valves. If you were to imagine a massive gate valve comprising the entire upper 1/4 of the tube and continuing for the whole length, then sure, instant venting is possible. Anything smaller will take longer.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Anaxagoras »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Pneumatic transit for cats. :coolspecs:

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/a ... es/278629/
A series of tubes. :D
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Anaxagoras »

Meanwhile in Japan, plans for a maglev train still move forward:

World’s Fastest Train to Resume Trials as Japan Plans New Line
Japan is resuming trial runs for the world’s fastest magnetic-levitation train that will complement the Shinkansen bullet-train network when ready in 2027.

Central Japan Railway Co. plans to begin work on the 5.1 trillion yen ($52 billion) maglev line between Tokyo and Nagoya as early as April. Trial runs resume today after the company spent five years building a 24-kilometer extension of a test track. The trains can run at speeds of up to 500 kilometers (310 miles) per hour.

The maglevs will whisk passengers to Nagoya, a city of 2.3 million people, from Tokyo in as little as 40 minutes for the 286-kilometer journey, from as short as 95 minutes now, according to JR Central. Faced with the challenge of tunneling under Tokyo’s skyscrapers and Japanese Alps, the project is unlikely to be completed on time even as Japan’s population is projected to shrink.
2027, but "unlikely to be completed on time". California's proposed high-speed rail system is scheduled to be complete in 2029.

One wonders if these are wise uses of money.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Rob Lister »

Wouldn't it be cheaper to create two dedicated airports with continuous to/from dedicated flights with dedicated aircraft? Free. With personal autos waiting. Also free. And houses. Free again.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Anaxagoras »

Well, the Denver International Airport cost shy of $5 billion to build, so let's say that, yes, it would probably cost less to build two new airports (although existing ones would seem to serve the purpose already and where would you put another airport in Tokyo? There are already 2: Haneda and Narita, although Narita is not actually in Tokyo.)

I don't know why. Trains could in theory carry more passengers, but is the demand really there? Plus there is already Shinkansen service between the two cities. A train can also stop at points in between, although that would slow it down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%8Dkai ... Shinkansen

Last year 143 million passengers rode the Tokaido Shinkansen (between Tokyo and Osaka/Kyoto, with Nagoya in between), and 67 million used Haneda Airport (to and from all the places it serves).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haneda_Airport
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Doctor X »

I thought they shut down the Shinaknsen to stop the Ninja Attacks:
[youtube]mjmBGgEkFpg[/youtube]
--J.D.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Cool Hand »

Anaxagoras wrote:Well, the Denver International Airport cost shy of $5 billion to build, so let's say that, yes, it would probably cost less to build two new airports (although existing ones would seem to serve the purpose already and where would you put another airport in Tokyo? There are already 2: Haneda and Narita, although Narita is not actually in Tokyo.)

I don't know why. Trains could in theory carry more passengers, but is the demand really there? Plus there is already Shinkansen service between the two cities. A train can also stop at points in between, although that would slow it down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%8Dkai ... Shinkansen

Last year 143 million passengers rode the Tokaido Shinkansen (between Tokyo and Osaka/Kyoto, with Nagoya in between), and 67 million used Haneda Airport (to and from all the places it serves).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haneda_Airport
I can see that mode of transport being popular in Japan. Persons there are used to it and it has become part of its modern culture.

The article in the OP postulates that Americans will take to it and abandon cars, airplanes, etc. Not. Going. To. Happen. The US is a car culture and will not abandon its cars for trains for routine travel in the foreseeable future. This is not a technological issue; it's a cultural one.

CH
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Pyrrho »

Cool Hand wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:Well, the Denver International Airport cost shy of $5 billion to build, so let's say that, yes, it would probably cost less to build two new airports (although existing ones would seem to serve the purpose already and where would you put another airport in Tokyo? There are already 2: Haneda and Narita, although Narita is not actually in Tokyo.)

I don't know why. Trains could in theory carry more passengers, but is the demand really there? Plus there is already Shinkansen service between the two cities. A train can also stop at points in between, although that would slow it down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%8Dkai ... Shinkansen

Last year 143 million passengers rode the Tokaido Shinkansen (between Tokyo and Osaka/Kyoto, with Nagoya in between), and 67 million used Haneda Airport (to and from all the places it serves).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haneda_Airport
I can see that mode of transport being popular in Japan. Persons there are used to it and it has become part of its modern culture.

The article in the OP postulates that Americans will take to it and abandon cars, airplanes, etc. Not. Going. To. Happen. The US is a car culture and will not abandon its cars for trains for routine travel in the foreseeable future. This is not a technological issue; it's a cultural one.

CH
Yup. Bill Agee bankrupted Morrison Knudsen Corporation when he tried to become a high speed train magnate.

Even tried to sell it in Hawaii.

Depends on public funding. In this economy the states can't afford it, and we taxpayers sure can't.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Rob Lister »

Pyrrho wrote:
Cool Hand wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:Well, the Denver International Airport cost shy of $5 billion to build, so let's say that, yes, it would probably cost less to build two new airports (although existing ones would seem to serve the purpose already and where would you put another airport in Tokyo? There are already 2: Haneda and Narita, although Narita is not actually in Tokyo.)

I don't know why. Trains could in theory carry more passengers, but is the demand really there? Plus there is already Shinkansen service between the two cities. A train can also stop at points in between, although that would slow it down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%8Dkai ... Shinkansen

Last year 143 million passengers rode the Tokaido Shinkansen (between Tokyo and Osaka/Kyoto, with Nagoya in between), and 67 million used Haneda Airport (to and from all the places it serves).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haneda_Airport
I can see that mode of transport being popular in Japan. Persons there are used to it and it has become part of its modern culture.

The article in the OP postulates that Americans will take to it and abandon cars, airplanes, etc. Not. Going. To. Happen. The US is a car culture and will not abandon its cars for trains for routine travel in the foreseeable future. This is not a technological issue; it's a cultural one.

CH
Yup. Bill Agee bankrupted Morrison Knudsen Corporation when he tried to become a high speed train magnate.

Even tried to sell it in Hawaii.

Depends on public funding. In this economy the states can't afford it, and we taxpayers sure can't.
It seems like it would work best between two cities which also have excellent public transportation. What good does it do to take cheap and fast long-haul transportation only to be stranded at your destination. By the time you rent a car (or pay for taxies) you've spent all you saved in transportation costs. The time you spend arranging all of that will kill your time savings too, pretty much. So I can see it for some cities, but only a few here.

See! I'm not a hater.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by DrMatt »

If he fails, he'll be another kook. If he succeeds, he'll be John Galt--another kook.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Rob Lister »

DrMatt wrote:If he fails, he'll be another kook. If he succeeds, he'll be John Galt--another kook.
John Galt would have built the thing and then talked about it, not talked about the thing and suggest someone else build it.

:P
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Re: hyperloop

Post by DrMatt »

When I first saw the OP, I thought it created shortcuts from here to there via another dimension. I was woefully disappointed.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Anaxagoras »

Who is John Galt?
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Doctor X »

Some self-important deluded harridan's wet dream.

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Re: hyperloop

Post by Anaxagoras »

Elon Musk's Hyperloop Will Work, Says Some Very Smart Software
When Elon Musk unveiled the Hyperloop back in August, his critics were quick to scoff at his proposal for a new, superfast mode of transporation. A number of people derided Musk’s white paper as cartoonish and vague. Musk vowed to prove the naysayers wrong by building an actual physical prototype, but that’s not expected to arrive for years.

Meanwhile, some evidence has just appeared that shows Musk may indeed be onto something. Ansys (ANSS), a maker of very high-end simulation software used to design planes, trains, automobiles and all manner of other things, has fed the Hyperloop specifications into a computer and come away impressed. “I don’t immediately see any red flags,” says Sandeep Sovani, the director of land transporation strategy at Ansys. “I think it is quite viable.”
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Rob Lister »

When Elon Musk unveiled the Hyperloop back in August, his critics were quick to scoff at his proposal for a new, superfast mode of transporation. A number of people derided Musk’s white paper as cartoonish and vague.
I don't remember 'cartoonish' being a popular criticism but it was certainly vague.
Musk vowed to prove the naysayers wrong by building an actual physical prototype, but that’s not expected to arrive for years.
I don't remember him vowing anything except to NOT build and to maybe build a prototype, if he found time.
Meanwhile, ... Ansys (ANSS), ... has fed the Hyperloop specifications into a computer and come away impressed. “I don’t immediately see any red flags,”
AFAIK, none of the criticism was directed toward the physics or theory of the principle. It was the pragmatism that got the guffaws. I wonder if their computer tested for that.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Rob Lister »

Back in the news.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2014/12/ ... e-reality/

Notable quote
Students from around the world working on the project now have stock options in the company.

Ahlborn says within about 10 years and with about $16 billion Hyperloop could become a reality.
Here, let me poor you a cup of pffft.

Not saying it is a scam, just that the difference between a scam and an honest effort will result in the same failure.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by ceptimus »

Brunel built an atmospheric railway back in the 1840s. The trains were powered by vacuum in a tube laid between the tracks. There was a piston that slid in the tube, attached to the train by a blade that ran in a slot at the top of the tube. The tube had some greased flaps that sealed the slot in when the train wasn't passing.

http://www.mybrunel.co.uk/_includes/ima ... ric01p.jpg

It was a failure partly because rats nibbled at the sealing flaps and so destroyed the vacuum. The railway line was retained but converted to normal steam locomotive power.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Rob Lister »

http://static.dyp.im/qCHPfDmldW/f5ed515 ... 631b6a.JPG

I love Elon to death. I want to have his rocket baby. I want to give him a hummer in his electric hummer.

But this is such a dumb idea, pragmatically, that it just makes me lose respect for him. Sure, maybe it is a fun academic exercise but the thought of making it practical is just dumb, dumb, dumb.

It's okay, Elon, I still love you.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Rob Lister »

LA to SF in 30 min: the hyperloop wars are on

On Monday, a crowdsourced enterprise led by NASA and Boeing veterans called Hyperloop Transportation Technologies announced it had licensed passive magnetic levitation technology to power its prototype system, which like other hyperloop templates, promises to shuttle humans and goods in a vacuum tube system at speeds up to 750 mph.

How fast is that? Zipping from Los Angeles to San Francisco would take 30 minutes as compared to a six-hour drive or an all-day train ride.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news ... /84137224/

Such fucking pie in the sky.
And that's not to mention the price tag. A tube system linking L.A. and San Francisco with hyperloop pods has been estimated to cost north of $6 billion.
More pie in the sky. I would bet well north of $6 billion. North pole north of $6 billion. $6 billion might cover the political graft.

Distance from LA to SF is ~600km
n July 2014 The World Bank reported that the per kilometer cost of California's high-speed rail system was $56 million ... per km
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Californi ... rojections

600km * $56m = 33 Billion.

Okay, but they'll cheaper than HSR. Because, ya know, Musk. But not that much cheaper.

OTOH, at 750mph a turn radius of 3 miles is ~2.5G, which is pretty uncomfortable. Better keep those curves very slow. That's horizontal and vertical, btw. Is that LA to SF trek a particularly hilly one?

I think vomit will be a integral part of the experience.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Anaxagoras »

Rob Lister wrote: OTOH, at 750mph a turn radius of 3 miles is ~2.5G, which is pretty uncomfortable. Better keep those curves very slow. That's horizontal and vertical, btw. Is that LA to SF trek a particularly hilly one?

I think vomit will be a integral part of the experience.
Awesome!

Well, of course you could slow down to take the curves, and that would mean it's going to be more than 30 minutes.

There would be hills near LA and hills near SF I think, but the Central Valley is flat as a pool table. I spent a few weeks in Lemore to train for F/A-18s after I left my A-6 squadron in Japan.

In Japan, they tend to make a lot of tunnels for the Shinkansen. Those would add to the cost of course.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Anaxagoras »

[youtube][/youtube]

Analysis by Thunderf00t. I think he identifies a lot of fatal flaws in this scheme. The primary one being safety. Problems like thermal expansion problems, the fact that no one has ever made a vacuum tube even close to that size, problems like a single point of failure being likely to destroy the whole thing and kill everyone in it. Minor stuff like that.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Rob Lister »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:The best way to go would be high speed conventional rail.
No. That is not the best way. two dedicated airports and a bunch of planes is the way to go. You could build the airports and buy the planes at a tenth of what HSR would cost.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Rob Lister »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:The best way to go would be high speed conventional rail.
No. That is not the best way. two dedicated airports and a bunch of planes is the way to go. You could build the airports and buy the planes at a tenth of what HSR would cost.
For relatively shorter trips (e.g. Boston to DC with a few stops in between), rail is more convenient. No three hour cab ride to downtown.
Is the three hour cab ride to and from the high speed rail station somehow more tolerable?
And it's cheaper to build if the right of way is already there.
Planes don't need right of way.
And airports bad neighbors.
I don't have a witty retort for that one ... verb or no verb.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Rob Lister »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:The best way to go would be high speed conventional rail.
No. That is not the best way. two dedicated airports and a bunch of planes is the way to go. You could build the airports and buy the planes at a tenth of what HSR would cost.
For relatively shorter trips (e.g. Boston to DC with a few stops in between), rail is more convenient. No three hour cab ride to downtown.
Is the three hour cab ride to and from the high speed rail station somehow more tolerable?
The train station is already downtown.

Nice try Troll Boy.
The airport is already there too. It is 3 miles from the train station. It takes no longer to get to it than to the train station, you verbless cunt.
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Re: hyperloop

Post by Anaxagoras »

Assuming you are already downtown.

In my own case here in Japan, if I wanted to go to Osaka for example, getting from my house to the nearest Shinkansen station is roughly comparable to getting to the nearest airport. However, once there it is probably easier to board the train than to board the airplane. It's been a while since I did it so, you know. If I were to do it though I think I would prefer the Shinkansen experience. It might be more convenient at the other end too.