Climate Change/Global Warming Hysteria with graphs!

We are the Borg.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by sparks »

It's perfectly simple: FF past his intro.
Surprise
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by Surprise »

Solar panels became nett enery producers some years ago. All power sources require maintenance. That isn't controversial either. No one source of renewable energy is going to be a "solution". The panels in that solar farm are only 8% efficient. There are commercial panels that are triple that efficiency now. Their three mile by five mile solare farm now only has to be a third of that size, much less than that if the power requirements are reduced.

There has to be focus on consumption as well. Homes can be much more energy efficient for not much more cost. You don't have to replace the total current energy requirements if the requirements are reduced.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by robinson »

Or you could put cheap solar panels on every home, insulate them, paint the roofs white and require trees for cooling. The problem is all of that costs money, and power is still dirt cheap many places.

Most people do not want to, or can't, put money up front to save it later.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by Surprise »

So, we get to the endgame. No point wasting anyones time on if global warming is real or not, we can't afford to anything about it anyway. Thread closed.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by robinson »

Surprise wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:08 am So, we get to the endgame. No point wasting anyones time on if global warming is real or not, we can't afford to anything about it anyway.
I don't know if that is true. I'm not even sure if it can be determined.

It reminds me of the starfish story ...
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by robinson »

gnome wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:19 am
CHARLEY_BIGTIME wrote:Global warmer: "In period x the global temperature increased by y caused by z!!1!"

Denier: "Yeah but in period a when there was a shitload of z the global temperature decreased by b - How do you explain that?"
Both sides of this, and most other political arguments, are happy to change the subject before hearing a rebuttal or a redirect, as long as their argument was the last one aired.

What's funny is how much repetition there is of arguments that in a real public discourse would have proceeded further towards something meaningful.
Really?
Surprise
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by Surprise »

robinson wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:54 pm
Surprise wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:08 am So, we get to the endgame. No point wasting anyones time on if global warming is real or not, we can't afford to anything about it anyway.
I don't know if that is true. I'm not even sure if it can be determined.

It reminds me of the starfish story ...
Scientsts often measure all kinds of things. Scientists researching climate science measure the temperature as well as other components that make up the climate. You might not be sure the temperature can be determined, the scientists have solved the problem many years ago, now they at the stage of refining the process.
Wood For Trees interactive Global Temperature Plot.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by Hotarubi »

robinson wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:48 am
gnome wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:19 am
CHARLEY_BIGTIME wrote:Global warmer: "In period x the global temperature increased by y caused by z!!1!"

Denier: "Yeah but in period a when there was a shitload of z the global temperature decreased by b - How do you explain that?"
Both sides of this, and most other political arguments, are happy to change the subject before hearing a rebuttal or a redirect, as long as their argument was the last one aired.

What's funny is how much repetition there is of arguments that in a real public discourse would have proceeded further towards something meaningful.
Really?
Yes, and you're an internet blowhard if you dont realise this.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by sparks »

Solar panels don't last very long. Further, they have a helluva carbon footprint. And after all this time, they're still fuckingly inefficient.

No, that's not the answer.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by Surprise »

sparks wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:43 pm Solar panels don't last very long. Further, they have a helluva carbon footprint. And after all this time, they're still fuckingly inefficient.

No, that's not the answer.
What do you call very long? They have a lifetime of at least 20 years. They are nett energy producers. Efficiency and technology are improving. They are not an "answer", there is no magic bullet.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by Witness »

https://i.imgur.com/xgHwQxZ.png
Pre/post refers to installation before or after 2000.

They last for decades. See https://energyinformative.org/lifespan-solar-panels/
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by robinson »

We are fossil fuel’s are expensive or very hard to get solar is very efficient
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by robinson »

I know somebody in the business of installing solar panels for lights for billboards. The biggest problem they have is people stealing the solar panels. The reason solar panels are used is because there are no electric lines making solar much more cost effective.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by Rob Lister »

The Award-Winning Quintessential Solar Thread

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=38243&hilit=solar
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by robinson »

Wow
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by Anaxagoras »

National Review review's Michael Moore's new movie:

https://news.yahoo.com/michael-moore-em ... 42176.html
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by Rob Lister »

Anaxagoras wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 6:02 am National Review review's Michael Moore's new movie:

https://news.yahoo.com/michael-moore-em ... 42176.html
That was a worthy article, but I have issues with the passivity of the last para; the conclusion, so to speak.
Ideas have consequences. If the idea is accepted that the world faces a fundamental crisis of overpopulation, there will be men of action prepared to do something about it. Compared with the havoc they inflict, green-energy swindles will be the least of our problems.
Emphasis mine.

Accepted by whom? What will they do? Havoc how?

There is no doubt in my mind that overpopulation is a crisis and that letting that crisis self-regulate to its own solution is begging for a bigger crisis, so I want that havoc to which he refers better defined.

The movie's premise--or the reviewer's interpretation of it--is a strawman. Virgin forests are not being devastated for the production of energy to any meaningful extent, they're being harvested for their lumber and stripped to grow food; there aren't enough caves to go around and one can't eat a tree.

To the extent AGW is a problem, it is trivially solved: 90% nuclear, 20% NG, 20% wind*.

To the extent overpopulation is a problem, I have no solution that won't stack corpses like cordwood from horizon to horizon.

* From an engineering standpoint, ideally you want 150% so private solar will suffice for the shortfall so long as the utilities are not forced into buying what they don't need, much less paying retail for it.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by gnome »

I had been under the impression that successful modernization tends to restrain birth rates... is that no longer considered true, or not enough? That sounds like a reasonable solution to me.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by Rob Lister »

gnome wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 10:39 am I had been under the impression that successful modernization tends to restrain birth rates... is that no longer considered true, or not enough? That sounds like a reasonable solution to me.
I think it is very true, but nowhere close to enough. Even at only 7.5 billion, we're already swimming in our own filth, and we're making more a hell of a lot faster than we're cleaning it up.

Maybe not 'us' personally ... and therein might lie the problem: the folks most adept to solving the issue (money, resources) don't really live or even see the issue (our side of the fence is very green).

But like I said, I have no solution. Other than a nuclear one. The bad nuclear, in this case.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by Anaxagoras »

corplinx wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:52 am

Michael Moore makes you hate the Green Industry
I finally had time to watch. I do recommend although the second half gets kinda dodgy and seems to be a bit of a hatchet job. Rather a bummer, I must say, but it's an eye-opener for sure, about what passes for "green energy".

For a Youtube video it has excellent production value. At the beginning there's footage of the earth from the ISS which is well worth seeing.

Feels a bit like the movie Koyaanisqatsi.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by Anaxagoras »

Rob Lister wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 7:49 am
Anaxagoras wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 6:02 am National Review review's Michael Moore's new movie:

https://news.yahoo.com/michael-moore-em ... 42176.html
That was a worthy article, but I have issues with the passivity of the last para; the conclusion, so to speak.
Ideas have consequences. If the idea is accepted that the world faces a fundamental crisis of overpopulation, there will be men of action prepared to do something about it. Compared with the havoc they inflict, green-energy swindles will be the least of our problems.
Emphasis mine.

Accepted by whom? What will they do? Havoc how?

There is no doubt in my mind that overpopulation is a crisis and that letting that crisis self-regulate to its own solution is begging for a bigger crisis, so I want that havoc to which he refers better defined.

The movie's premise--or the reviewer's interpretation of it--is a strawman. Virgin forests are not being devastated for the production of energy to any meaningful extent, they're being harvested for their lumber and stripped to grow food; there aren't enough caves to go around and one can't eat a tree.

To the extent AGW is a problem, it is trivially solved: 90% nuclear, 20% NG, 20% wind*.

To the extent overpopulation is a problem, I have no solution that won't stack corpses like cordwood from horizon to horizon.

* From an engineering standpoint, ideally you want 150% so private solar will suffice for the shortfall so long as the utilities are not forced into buying what they don't need, much less paying retail for it.
Food is energy. It's the gasoline we use to power our bodies.

I believe there is a humane solution to overpopulation though. Family planning and feminism. Not all women need to be baby-making factories. They can have careers instead. (Better than straight up murdering people. Just convince them to not reproduce, and provide the contraceptives that help.)
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by ed »

Anaxagoras wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 10:59 am

I believe there is a humane solution to overpopulation though. Family planning and feminism. Not all women need to be baby-making factories. They can have careers instead. (Better than straight up murdering people. Just convince them to not reproduce, and provide the contraceptives that help.)
They have been convinced. Ergo the most productive and contributory segments of world society reproduce at non-sustainable levels whereas the uneducated and poor reproduce like bunnies.

What could go wrong?
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by gnome »

Rob Lister wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 10:43 am
gnome wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 10:39 am I had been under the impression that successful modernization tends to restrain birth rates... is that no longer considered true, or not enough? That sounds like a reasonable solution to me.
I think it is very true, but nowhere close to enough. Even at only 7.5 billion, we're already swimming in our own filth, and we're making more a hell of a lot faster than we're cleaning it up.

Maybe not 'us' personally ... and therein might lie the problem: the folks most adept to solving the issue (money, resources) don't really live or even see the issue (our side of the fence is very green).

But like I said, I have no solution. Other than a nuclear one. The bad nuclear, in this case.
I guess I am forever optimistic. Solving waste issues seems like more of an innovation and organizational issue. That is no small matter at all, but it is very different in character than an inevitable population growth that overwhelms any possible solution. To underscore why I don't think population is a losing battle:

https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate

I think we are approaching a rough equilibrium in that respect.
Last edited by gnome on Fri May 01, 2020 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by Rob Lister »

Anaxagoras wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 10:59 am Just convince them to not reproduce, and provide the contraceptives that help.)
That is the successful modernization that gnome spoke of. But in my mind ...
Lister wrote:There is no doubt in my mind that overpopulation is a crisis and that letting that crisis self-regulate to its own solution is begging for a bigger crisis
...it is the self-regulation I spoke of before. Way too little, way too late. I won't--and maybe you either--live long enough to see the problem come to fruition, so there is that bright side.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by robinson »

Almost half of the fossil fuels used each day

Which is really big number

Is used to grow, process, ship, store, prepare and cook food
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by robinson »

The growing part is the largest part

Fossil fuels are how we have so much fertilizer
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by gnome »

In "Gateway" by Frederick Pohl, a near-future scenario (that is, near-future at the time of the book's 1977 authorship, which probably means 1996 or something) has the need for food on Earth so great that fossil fuels, oil especially, are being converted directly into synthetic food. The narrator snarks on how people used to waste it by sticking it into vehicles and burning it up.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by robinson »

I wonder if the TV series will ever happen
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by Anaxagoras »

Lethal levels of heat and humidity are gripping global ‘hot spots’ sooner than expected
From the shores of the Persian Gulf to the foothills of Mexico’s Sierra Madre Occidental mountains, hot weather is reaching levels humans can’t endure. An analysis of 4 decades of data from thousands of weather stations shows that a handful of hot spots around the globe are experiencing a potentially lethal mix of heat and humidity—something most of these places weren’t expected to experience until midcentury.

“Previous studies projected that this would happen several decades from now, but this shows it’s happening right now,” says Colin Raymond, a postdoctoral researcher at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory who led the study.

Hot weather is already lethal. A 2003 heat wave, for example, killed more than 70,000 people in Europe, when outdoor temperatures reached more than 40°C. But it’s not just the heat that kills. Humidity is deadly when it prevents the evaporation of sweat—a remarkably efficient way for the human body to cool itself. To measure the effects of heat plus humidity, scientists use wet bulb temperatures—the lowest temperature to which air can be cooled via evaporation.

At wet bulb temperatures above 35°C, researchers estimate that even fit people will overheat and potentially die within 6 hours. Although that temperature might seem low, it equates to almost 45°C at 50% humidity, and what it would feel like 71°C using the U.S. National Weather Service heat index. In the heat wave that ravaged Europe, wet bulb temperatures hit 28°C.

Climate change will likely make these conditions more common in places such as southwest Asia, India, and China, researchers say. But their models estimate temperatures for relatively large swaths of land. Likewise, analyses of past weather data assess conditions over grids of more than 700 square kilometers, potentially missing localized spikes.

Raymond wondered whether that might obscure specific hot spots where geography and weather are already conspiring to create intolerable conditions. To find out, he and his colleagues combed through 39 years of hourly data from weather stations on six continents, dating back to 1979.

They discovered a handful of individual spots—including shorelines along the Persian Gulf and river valleys in India and Pakistan—had crossed the 35°C wet bulb threshold, though only for an hour or two at a time. And in 2017, wet bulb conditions topped 30°C 1000 times—more than double the number in 1979, they write today in Science Advances.

Weather stations in several other places stood out. They include Mexican towns near the Gulf of Mexico and the Gulf of California, and the coastal city of San Francisco in Venezuela. Areas in the Caribbean, West Africa, and southern China also had extreme readings. Weather stations in these places recorded approximately 1000 incidents registering at 31°C, while the wet bulb temperature broke 33°C about 80 times, according to the researchers.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by robinson »

Of course the doom sayers (who might be right btw) are trying to promote the warming story. The timing is bad. Coldest ever records are happening
But you won’t see them on TV



I checked the deadly heat “story” and of course it starts looking at data from 1979, a cherry picking that is rampant amongst alarm ringers

Meanwhile in the real


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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by robinson »



In a world of science, where the goal is to figure shit out, a blizzard in May would be a big story
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by gnome »

Individual anomalies are not particularly significant to evaluating a trend.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming Hysteria thread

Post by robinson »

“Can't make billions off nuclear power apparently.”



That is an amazing insight


But you can lose many many billions in an instant
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming Hysteria thread

Post by robinson »

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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming Hysteria thread

Post by robinson »

Here’s why it just won’t matter to an alarmists. And this is not rhetoric, it actually will not matter.


Using GISS data, which is adjusted to make the present warmer, it’s still evident the AGW theory is wrong. BGWT Predicts the most warming will be in the coldest months.

https://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/maps/
65D4BA32-36A0-4E96-8384-99ED62907DB7.png
The alarmists will counter that’s too short of a trend.
A0D23F56-3FD1-467D-8144-D79DCFB44094.png
Then they will say “yeah but globally!”, which is why it just doesn’t matter. It’s not a scientific discussion, it’s just not.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming Hysteria thread

Post by Hotarubi »

Needs a better graph and more science.
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming/AGW featuring graphs

Post by robinson2 »

corplinx wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 3:50 pm And anti-science loonies in Nevada deep sixed Yucca mountain.
Actually it was Obama
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming Hysteria thread

Post by sparks »

And Mango is following his lead. Now ain't that something?
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming Hysteria thread

Post by robinson »

Yep
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Re: Climate Change/Global Warming Hysteria thread

Post by robinson »

One could say the same for every other world leader




Nobody has come close to solving the problem of nuclear waste

And nobody will