Windows 10

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Witness
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Windows 10

Post by Witness »

No 9… Can't understand why people are so excited about the start menu, or its absence. Anyway:
Extreme Tech wrote:Microsoft has unveiled Windows 10 — not Windows 9, but Windows 10. The launch event in San Francisco was mostly what we expected: Microsoft wants to make Windows 10 a killer OS for all of those disaffected mouse-and-keyboard users — both normal Desktop users like you and I, and also the big enterprise customers who were rather displeased with Windows 8′s Metro interface.
Details here
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Pyrrho »

:cowbell:

or

:hyper:

I dunno. Whatever.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Rob Lister »

Can't understand why people are so excited about the start menu, or its absence.
A picture is worth 28 words

Image


Because it is central to most every process I'm used to. It has been my primary navigation tool for 20 years. It all starts with start. Even stop. :)

Image

This is our presenter, Microsoft's Vice President of Duh.

This does not bode well.

I'm not sure if that is a bad comb-over or intentionally done that way as some sort of fashion statement. I'm going to give him the benefit of doubt and call it a comb-over. I instinctively distrust any guy with a 'hairdo'. I only reluctantly respect Mohawks.

To the matter at hand. We only have a 4 minute video with 2 of those eaten up by mister weird.

I note they provided the ability to create a second desktop and a task view function. That's very osx10.6 of them. That might be useful. They bring back the traditional start button but paste a metro ... flag?... on it. I suppose that's some sort of a face-saving device for them. I would have to find a way to nix that 'busyness'. Not looking for flash or fancy. Looking purely for function. That's really the root of it.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by asthmatic camel »

You only dislike "hairdos" because you have none left to "do".

:P

I digress. Removing the start button was a HUGE, (if easily fixed), FAIL, and I don't understand why M$ didn't bring it back in 8.1 after all the complaints. It doesn't hurt to admit to being wrong once in a while.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by ed »

odd that they don't test products before they release them.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by asthmatic camel »

I suppose that would rob them of all the launch hype. I'd be more concerned with hyping something that my customers actually want but there you go.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Rob Lister »

asthmatic camel wrote:I suppose that would rob them of all the launch hype.
Whats that supposed to mean!? :x
ed wrote:odd that they don't test products before they release them.
I'm sure they have hand-selected focus groups. Therein lies the problem: hand selected.

Tell me if you think I'm wrong ...

They have a goal in mind: One Windows.
We're sorry the focus group didn't like the changes but the changes are [deemed] necessary [by us] to [once again try to] expand our market into the [rapidly] growing mobile market and reduce dependance on the shrinking desktop market. Fire the focus group and get one that approves.
Note the start 'new' start menu

Image

Which is, minus the useful part on the left we're all used to, the mobile desktop. Initiate. Indoctrinate. Brand (as a verb).

The video is a hoot though. "Look, each window has a title bar!11?eleventy!"
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Re: Windows 10

Post by ed »

I've had a lot of experience with focus groups, my wife actually had a company that did them. In their place they are very useful, sadly they can also serve as a rorschach and therein lies the problem. If they are performed to support a decision that is simply dishonest.
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Re: Windows 10

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Rob Lister wrote:Because it is central to most every process I'm used to. It has been my primary navigation tool for 20 years. It all starts with start. Even stop.
Win3.1 didn't have a Start menu.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Rob Lister »

DrMatt wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:Because it is central to most every process I'm used to. It has been my primary navigation tool for 20 years. It all starts with start. Even stop.
Win3.1 didn't have a Start menu.
Image

95 did, which was out in 96. 18 years ago. So ...
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Re: Windows 10

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Rob Lister wrote:Image

This is our presenter, Microsoft's Führer of Duh.
FTFY
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Rob Lister »

Thanks matt, and while we're scuttlebutting, here's the major player 'plug-in' for Microsoft 3.1, way back in 94. We called them shells back then, iirc

Image

So the major advance was the start button. It brought it all together. With 8, they succeeded in tearing it utterly apart.
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Re: Windows 10

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Rob Lister wrote:Thanks matt, and while we're scuttlebutting, here's the major player 'plug-in' for Microsoft 3.1, way back in 94. We called them shells back then, iirc

Image

So the major advance was the start button. It brought it all together. With 8, they succeeded in tearing it utterly apart.
The Start Button was just one of a bunch of things they created all at once, including the Recycle Bin, that were all knockoffs of the GUI of Xerox LISP Machines from 1980. Of course, the fruit brand did the same 12 years earlier, in 1983, creating the market space that allowed W95 to flourish.
Really, though, uniformity of keystrokes and menu layouts across a large number of applications was the thing that made W95 so much better than earlier MS offerings. That, of course, had been carved into the market by, you guessed it, Xerox and Apple.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Rob Lister »

Ah, to reminisce. I created an edit to my post above yours to illustrate how that shell was just Macintosh 10 years late. I went back to check1 that I would not impede on a reply and though my negligence, lost my post. Not to worry, since you provided the gist of it better.

But only if Jobs had had his way ...

The MAC had a start button, of sorts; the Apple in the upper right. The one we've grown to love has two start buttons, depending on what you want to start. These are good and proper but Microsoft did them better, IMO.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that the Start Button was and is important.

Jobs fucked up so royally. He let them oust him. He'd have dominated Gates; of that I'm sure. Of course, you can't change History without changing the present, so we might now all be talking about how fucked up Apple is.

P.S. I don't mean to diminish your reference to XEROX et al but I would point out that they did not have a finger on the popular market; they were not able to either recognize nor deploy those advances. Like silver in a mine, if I may.

1. necessary since pyrrho gave in to lesser local market forces and removed the warning.
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Re: Windows 10

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To be fair, Jobs had some strange ideas.

He also did not understand, until years later, that the "point" was the software and not the hardware. Still, Apple promotes hardware: NEW iMacBookPRO--"because you are a professional! Those who do not buy the 'pro' version could never bring Mila Kunis to orgasm. No, better your limp dick stick with a Dell and Windows. Buy her enough booze and she might let you touch her breasts . . . maybe. Then she will fuck your brother."

Hook them on software. Even if it is M$ shitty, because it is always easier to stick with what you know. I always love it when a PC/M$ user complains they do not want to use a Mac because it is "complicated." What?

So Jobs built NeXT which was nice . . . but why would you buy a "nice" computer which ONLY runs software for it primarily?

I think the iPod/iPhone changed everything for Mac. Popular software. People want it. They will buy your shitty EVEN BIGGER THUS MORE UNWEILDY iphone just to have it.

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Re: Windows 10

Post by asthmatic camel »

My major beef with 8 is that it's so difficult to gat "under the bonnet/hood" without the traditional start button, (where do you find a command prompt, how do you get the fucker to work once you've found it etc.) Rarely a problem for most folks but it's a fucking nuisance for me. Otherwise I like it well enough.

Macs? Fine apart from the hugely inflated cost of the fucking things. I ain't handing over my hard-earned for one, no matter how shiny it looks.
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.
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Re: Windows 10

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asthmatic camel wrote:My major beef with 8 is that it's so difficult to gat "under the bonnet/hood" without the traditional start button, (where do you find a command prompt, how do you get the fucker to work once you've found it etc.) Rarely a problem for most folks but it's a fucking nuisance for me. Otherwise I like it well enough.

Macs? Fine apart from the hugely inflated cost of the fucking things. I ain't handing over my hard-earned for one, no matter how shiny it looks.
You press the start button on your keyboard, type "cmd" and press enter.
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Re: Windows 10

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Yes, I know that now but why change something that's so simple, handy and has been there in Windows nearly forever? Same with moving things around in control panel so you have to search and find them, it doesn't make sense.
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.
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Re: Windows 10

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asthmatic camel wrote:Yes, I know that now but why change something that's so simple, handy and has been there in Windows nearly forever? Same with moving things around in control panel so you have to search and find them, it doesn't make sense.
I made a shortcut to Programs And Features and renamed it to Add Remove Programs. But I didn't feel like fiddling to install it in the Control Panel proper--My guess is that it's in the registry.
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Re: Windows 10

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I've tweaked it so most things are easy to get at now but it was irritating. You have to go from the desktop to the metro screen to add things to the desktop, how stupid is that?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.
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Re: Windows 10

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I've started a scoreboard.

"Metro" = Tablet-style apps view with big buttons that fingers can easily manage, i.e. metrosexual, a step backwards from detailed views.
"Charms" = quick-access control panel, i.e. magically delicious ("Control Center" in fruit brand).
"Cloud" = Your hardware could be lost or destroyed without causing Us to lose your data from our servers, i.e. we own you.
"Net Neutrality" = Who does DARPA think it is, a Department of Defense agency or something?
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Grammatron »

asthmatic camel wrote:Yes, I know that now but why change something that's so simple, handy and has been there in Windows nearly forever? Same with moving things around in control panel so you have to search and find them, it doesn't make sense.
The change was making it straight forward: want something, type it.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Rob Lister »

I've been looking through the various reviews and screenshots. The sources are the regular popular press tech sites so I take what the say skeptically; they're far from critical reviewers. From what i see, it look like it is up to par. I'm waiting for the more in depth reviews from those I trust. I like what they did with command prompt though; they brought it into the 2000's, if not the 2010's.

That's okay, if they improved it too much it wouldn't be cmd.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Bruce »

Wow.

We're still trying to get approval to replace the PC for the GC-MS in our lab that runs on Windows NT with a PC that can run Windows 7.

You all aren't buying enough prescription drugs, damn it! :x

Talk to your doctor. :D

Windows 10? That's like Space Shuttle technology right there.

What? What's that you say?
Image
They don't make Space Shuttles anymore?
Image
Get......out....... :o
Such potential!
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Re: Windows 10

Post by asthmatic camel »

Grammatron wrote:
asthmatic camel wrote:Yes, I know that now but why change something that's so simple, handy and has been there in Windows nearly forever? Same with moving things around in control panel so you have to search and find them, it doesn't make sense.
The change was making it straight forward: want something, type it.
But it was already there and I knew where it was and it was straightforward and, and, and...

Oh fuck it.
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Anaxagoras »

I hated it when they took away the menu bar on my browser. You can bring it up by hitting "alt" but how the hell am I supposed to intuit that? I had to ask tech support! Like some grandpa asking his kids how to work this contraption! :x

(I still remember trying and failing to teach my own grandparents how to use a computer. My grandmother bought some piece of total crap that was marketed to old people. Total garbage as it turned out. The company was gone in very short order.)
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Witness »

It's interesting to see how we use our machines in different ways! We should start a "Basic setup" thread…

As I ported my little tools from XP to 8, for me there was practically no difference (and with 8.1 the boot goes directly to the desktop). And I nearly never have to use the start menu.

My gripes are more with the "accounts" idea and software splattering its files in different, sometimes hard to guess, places. OK, it's for business places where different people need to share computers, or families, so fuck the solo user.

And then there's fashion and flashy interfaces – where you e. g. must first click some nearly invisible triangle to just get a kind of menu. And said menu closes as soon as your pointer wanders a bit away. :x
A good example: the numerous VSTs/synths made by gifted amateurs (and some companies), whose interface tries to work/look like analog gear out of the, what, eighties? If, like me, you mostly use a graphical tablet, working the turnknobs is a kind of sport.
Nothing like bland, boring, old fashioned standard OS GUI!
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Rob Lister »

[video][/video]
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Re: Windows 10

Post by asthmatic camel »

So it's 8.2?
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Pyrrho »

...and when Lister's video is done playing...
heh.JPG
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Rob Lister »

Heh.

From that 10K foot view, I don't see much to complain about. The snap features look worthy; improved even. These are central to my production methods.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Pyrrho »

It looks okay to me. I'll probably use it at work in a year--it takes a long time before a new OS makes it to enterprise. We're on Windows 7--IT said FOAD to Windows 8.

Next year we get Office 2013. :hyper:
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Pyrrho »

http://thehackernews.com/2014/10/downlo ... ogger.html
PERMISSION TO KEYLOG
If you are unaware of Microsoft’s privacy policy, so now you should pay attention to what the policy says. Microsoft is watching your every move on the latest Windows 10 Technical Preview, Thanks to portions of Microsoft's privacy policy, which indicates that the technology giant is using keylogger to collect and use users’ data in a variety of astounding ways without the user being aware.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Rob Lister »

I'm okay with that. It should be made very, very clear to the user/reviewer/guinea pig/chump, but I'd expect nothing less; this is alpha, not beta testing.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Witness »

Even on W8.1 explorer (which I never use) connects invisibly to the Internet and up/downloads some kB. Perhaps it's for the updates. Now I blocked it and will see what's happening.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Rob Lister »

Reading a review on cnet. cnet is a m$fanboy, so grains of salt, yada, but they're thorough, so....

This caught my eye in the skim:
... but you'll eventually be able to pop a 2-in-1 convertible device like the Surface Pro 3 onto its keyboard base, and watch the full-screen Start screen melt away, offering instead the new Start menu and the familiar desktop.

That could be a cure for the confusing mess that is the current Windows 8 PC ecosystem, chock full of laptops that bend over backward or split from keyboards, or simply graft touchscreens onto familiar designs. We should finally see an end to the jarring, generally unsatisfying experience that urges us to dance between the desktop and that weird, full-screen purgatory where Modern apps live.
http://www.cnet.com/products/microsoft-windows-10/

This is good and proper so long as it does not insist and try to be of more help than is absolutely necessary. That little tweek could be great but it has a high gatesism potential to do that which you absolutely do not want it to do. A pop-up to actually ask you how it should proceed is more goodly and properestlyer. The temptation to sell you something in the transition, or to enforce some sort of style or paradigm, is likely to be built right in. For example:
Windows 10 let's you work smarter, too. Click the search button to do exactly that -- search your files, the Windows Store or the entire Internet, right from the taskbar.
Thank you for letting me work smarter. And no thanks, stay in your chair.

When was the last time you looked in the refrigerator for your car keys? You'll look there eventually if you do not find them in logical places, but don't waste my bandwidth or processing power to look for things you do not understand in places you shouldn't venture without my permission. And more specifically, don't try to sell me something from your store while you're doing it.

Honestly, Microsoft (or Apple for that matter) has never done searches very well. That is a worthy R&D project. But looking in greater places for lesser things is not helpful. Understanding what constitutes a lesser thing is key. And that is hard.

Still not hating it, btw.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Rob Lister »

Regarding Pyrrho's link on beta KEYLOGGING ...

Windows Insider Program

This snip from an otherwise kinda dull article on how Microsoft is changing the way it does Windows updates.
The biggest difference, however, is that the Insider Program probably won't stop. Windows betas traditionally end when Windows leaves beta and has its formal release. After all, there's no real need to keep running a beta version of an operating system when a non-beta is available. But Windows 10 will be a bit different; because it will receive a steady stream of feature updates, it will need a steady stream of beta testing.
http://arstechnica.com/information-tech ... -updating/

So, for those that wish to prostitute themselves (and there are always some of those), one can be part of a continuing beta team. Always monitored, always watched, but also occasionally asked, 'What do you think about....' They note that Mozilla and Google have similar programs, but it is a major advance for the M$team.

I can't call that a fail.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Pyrrho »

That is basically what Adobe does with Creative Cloud.
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Pyrrho »

Image
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Re: Windows 10

Post by Rob Lister »

On the Mac side of the house, Yosemite OS X 10.10 just came out.

Some Mac enthusiasts are up in arms. Irate!

It appears they changed the default font to something that is not quite the same. The horror.