The Covid vaccines really do work

We are the Borg.
Pyrrho
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

Coronaviruses have been historically difficult to manage. None of the vaccines show 100% efficacy in the prevention of infection. They do show significant reduction in rates of severe illness and related sequelae such as hospitalization and death. Each different vaccine has a different efficacy/safety profile. The inactive virus vaccines show lower efficacy than the mRNA vaccines. The clinical data for all of them do show that the vaccines do work to lower rates of infection, hospitalization, and death, as do the data from the public administration of the vaccines.

Here is an example of an analysis of breakthrough infection rates with measles vaccinations:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6628760/

Any expectation that vaccines will be 100% effective and safe is misguided, just as any assertion that the vaccines will be 100% safe and effective is misguided. Nevertheless, surveillance of adverse events and breakthrough infection rates is necessary.
Hotarubi
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Hotarubi »

xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:09 am
I expected better from you than stooping to petty name-calling.

Bookmarked.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Hotarubi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:21 pm
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:09 am
I expected better from you than stooping to petty name-calling.

Bookmarked.
I expect to be held to the same standard I ask of others.

Sometimes I slip. Feel free to call me on it when I do.

Clarification: Ceptimus is one of my favorite posters here, as are certain others. Which is why his remark caught me off guard. Which is also my excuse for forgotting to add that I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt since he rarely, if ever, engages in name-calling. That's not his style. Perhaps I took it too personal, since I know several people personally who are some of those "idiots" who have not yet gotten vaccinated. I don't take kindly to my friends being called idiots, when clearly they are not.

Nonetheless, Ceptimus is still one of my favorite posters here.
Hotarubi
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Hotarubi »

xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:54 pm
Hotarubi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:21 pm
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:09 am
I expected better from you than stooping to petty name-calling.

Bookmarked.
I expect to be held to the same standard I ask of others.

No you do not, because you frequently lose your temper when I do exactly that.

As is evidenced in numerous places.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Hotarubi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:58 pm
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:54 pm
Hotarubi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:21 pm
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:09 am
I expected better from you than stooping to petty name-calling.

Bookmarked.
I expect to be held to the same standard I ask of others.

No you do not, because you frequently lose your temper when I do exactly that.

As is evidenced in numerous places.
Bullshit.

There is no such evidence.

You repeatedly and falsely accuse me of "losing my temper" when all I did was post a rolling eyes emoticon.

I have repeatedly explained what that means, and you repeatedly make the same false accusation. That says way more about your behavior here than it does mine.
ceptimus
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by ceptimus »

Most of the vaccines mostly prevent severe illness and death. It makes sense economically for a country to remove restrictions once enough of its population is vaccinated to prevent its hospitals being overwhelmed by COVID patients. The hospitals will still have to treat COVID patients, mostly from the unvaccinated pool. If 80% or so have taken the vaccine then the hospitals can likely cope, and the economic, and other, benefits from unlocking then outweigh the costs of remaining locked down.

Those who choose not to get the vaccine, and therefore stand a much greater risk of requiring hospital treatment, still burden the healthcare sector, and in countries with socialized healthcare cost the taxpayers a disproportionate amount, which is a shame. I suppose in countries with insurance based healthcare, the extra costs of treating the unvaccinated result in increased insurance premiums for the individuals or companies that pay them, and will eventually result in more people having no insurance, or worse insurance cover.

Short of making vaccines mandatory, or refusing treatment to the unvaccinated, there doesn't seem to be a solution. Most countries are sticking with optional vaccination, and persuasion.
Last edited by ceptimus on Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Hotarubi
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Hotarubi »

xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:16 pm
Hotarubi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:58 pm
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:54 pm
Hotarubi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:21 pm
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:09 am
I expected better from you than stooping to petty name-calling.

Bookmarked.
I expect to be held to the same standard I ask of others.

No you do not, because you frequently lose your temper when I do exactly that.

As is evidenced in numerous places.
Bullshit.

There is no such evidence.

You repeatedly and falsely accuse me of "losing my temper" when all I did was post a rolling eyes emoticon.

I have repeatedly explained what that means, and you repeatedly make the same false accusation. That says way more about your behavior here than it does mine.
QED
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

ceptimus wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:25 pm Most of the vaccines mostly prevent severe illness and death. It makes sense economically for a country to remove restrictions once enough of its population is vaccinated to prevent its hospitals being overwhelmed by COVID patients. The hospitals will still have to treat COVID patients, mostly from the unvaccinated pool. If 80% or so have taken the vaccine then the hospitals can likely cope, and the economic, and other, benefits from unlocking then outweigh the costs of remaining locked down.

Those who choose not to get the vaccine, and therefore stand a much greater risk of requiring hospital treatment, still burden the healthcare sector, and in countries with socialized healthcare cost the taxpayers a disproportionate amount, which is a shame. I suppose in countries with insurance based healthcare, the extra costs of treating the unvaccinated result in increased insurance premiums for the individuals or companies that pay them, and will eventually result in more people having no insurance, or worse insurance cover.

Short of making vaccines mandatory, or refusing treatment to the unvaccinated, there doesn't seem to be a solution. Most countries are sticking with optional vaccination, and persuasion.
In many hospitals these days, the majority of covid patients are vaccinated, which renders your argument invalid.

In any case, your general argument can be used against smokers, the obese, sexually transmitted diseases, and other lifestyle choices. Is that where you want to go with your argument?

One of my relatives is a pharmacist in a hospital and she is vehemently against mandating vaccinations. Is she an idiot? I don't think so.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Hotarubi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:29 pm
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:16 pm
Hotarubi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:58 pm
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:54 pm
Hotarubi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:21 pm
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:09 am
I expected better from you than stooping to petty name-calling.

Bookmarked.
I expect to be held to the same standard I ask of others.

No you do not, because you frequently lose your temper when I do exactly that.

As is evidenced in numerous places.
Bullshit.

There is no such evidence.

You repeatedly and falsely accuse me of "losing my temper" when all I did was post a rolling eyes emoticon.

I have repeatedly explained what that means, and you repeatedly make the same false accusation. That says way more about your behavior here than it does mine.
QED
Wrong again.
Hotarubi
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Hotarubi »

xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:08 pm
Hotarubi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:29 pm
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:16 pm
Hotarubi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:58 pm
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:54 pm
Hotarubi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:21 pm
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:09 am
I expected better from you than stooping to petty name-calling.

Bookmarked.
I expect to be held to the same standard I ask of others.

No you do not, because you frequently lose your temper when I do exactly that.

As is evidenced in numerous places.
Bullshit.

There is no such evidence.

You repeatedly and falsely accuse me of "losing my temper" when all I did was post a rolling eyes emoticon.

I have repeatedly explained what that means, and you repeatedly make the same false accusation. That says way more about your behavior here than it does mine.
QED
Wrong again.
Funny that the hypocrite says there's no evidence while providing it. Gives me...warm satisfaction to be on the money again.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Hotarubi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:13 pm
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:08 pm
Hotarubi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:29 pm
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:16 pm
Hotarubi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:58 pm
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:54 pm
Hotarubi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:21 pm
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:09 am
I expected better from you than stooping to petty name-calling.

Bookmarked.
I expect to be held to the same standard I ask of others.

No you do not, because you frequently lose your temper when I do exactly that.

As is evidenced in numerous places.
Bullshit.

There is no such evidence.

You repeatedly and falsely accuse me of "losing my temper" when all I did was post a rolling eyes emoticon.

I have repeatedly explained what that means, and you repeatedly make the same false accusation. That says way more about your behavior here than it does mine.
QED
Wrong again.
Funny that the hypocrite says there's no evidence while providing it. Gives me...warm satisfaction to be on the money again.
I'm glad you are enjoying your delusions.
Hotarubi
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Hotarubi »

QED
Anaxagoras
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

Doctor X wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:48 pm I do not think, unless I missed it, that anyone serious is arguing that someone should get infected rather than get the vaccine. Yes, there are loons out there arguing for that stupidity, just as there are all sorts of willfully ignorant conspiracy theorists.

– J.D.
Well there's a member of this forum who has taken that position:
post-skeptic wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:56 pm Those of us who are brave and strong should have been at Covid parties with free D3/Zinc/Quercetin packs at some point as a mass innoculation strategy since natural immunity was always scientifically the best immunity.
Hotarubi
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Hotarubi »

xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:07 pm

One of my relatives is a pharmacist in a hospital and she is vehemently against mandating vaccinations. Is she an idiot? I don't think so.
Ask her who won the battle of Camulodunum. Let's find out.
Anaxagoras
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:07 pm In many hospitals these days, the majority of covid patients are vaccinated, which renders your argument invalid.
I'm curious about this assertion. Where did you hear about that?

Here's what I found, from an internet search:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/vast-majority ... d=79128401
Vast majority of ICU patients with COVID-19 are unvaccinated, ABC News survey finds

Of the 271 total COVID patients in the surveyed ICUs, 255 patients, or approximately 94%, were unvaccinated against COVID-19 in ABC News' snapshot in time.
That's from a couple months ago. Is there some new data to contradict this?
Pyrrho
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

Canada's page with adverse event data related to vaccines:

https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid ... ne-safety/
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Anaxagoras wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:28 am
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:07 pm In many hospitals these days, the majority of covid patients are vaccinated, which renders your argument invalid.
I'm curious about this assertion. Where did you hear about that?

Here's what I found, from an internet search:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/vast-majority ... d=79128401
Vast majority of ICU patients with COVID-19 are unvaccinated, ABC News survey finds

Of the 271 total COVID patients in the surveyed ICUs, 255 patients, or approximately 94%, were unvaccinated against COVID-19 in ABC News' snapshot in time.
That's from a couple months ago. Is there some new data to contradict this?
Yes.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Hotarubi wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:28 am
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:07 pm

One of my relatives is a pharmacist in a hospital and she is vehemently against mandating vaccinations. Is she an idiot? I don't think so.
Ask her who won the battle of Camulodunum. Let's find out.
Sorry, not taking your troll bait.
Hotarubi
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Hotarubi »

xouper wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:06 am
Hotarubi wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:28 am
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:07 pm

One of my relatives is a pharmacist in a hospital and she is vehemently against mandating vaccinations. Is she an idiot? I don't think so.
Ask her who won the battle of Camulodunum. Let's find out.
Sorry, not taking your troll bait.
Yes. You have no sense of humor. We know.

It's also a valid point of satire Too clever for you, obviously.
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

If you have multiple countries with pretty much everyone vaccinated, and deaths and cases are increasing In these countries, how do you spin that?

Especially when unvaccinated countries are not having the same problem?
Hotarubi
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Hotarubi »

As usual I am thankful to the experts that feel they do not need to provide data or evidence for their claims.

At least paranormal woos provide *something*.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Hotarubi wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:14 am
xouper wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:06 am
Hotarubi wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:28 am
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:07 pm

One of my relatives is a pharmacist in a hospital and she is vehemently against mandating vaccinations. Is she an idiot? I don't think so.
Ask her who won the battle of Camulodunum. Let's find out.
Sorry, not taking your troll bait.
Yes. You have no sense of humor. We know.

It's also a valid point of satire Too clever for you, obviously.
Again, not taking your troll bait.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Hotarubi wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:57 am As usual I am thankful to the experts that feel they do not need to provide data or evidence for their claims.

At least paranormal woos provide *something*.
No one here cares what you think.
Anaxagoras
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

xouper wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:04 am
Anaxagoras wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:28 am
That's from a couple months ago. Is there some new data to contradict this?
Yes.
Well, what is it?
Anaxagoras
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

robinson wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:47 am If you have multiple countries with pretty much everyone vaccinated, and deaths and cases are increasing In these countries, how do you spin that?

Especially when unvaccinated countries are not having the same problem?
Well, I would like to take a closer look at the data. One possible explanation is that Singapore had been pursuing a "Covid-zero" strategy, as Ceptimus mentioned, and it had been working so well that there were very few infections before the measures were relaxed. Now that they are going back to normal, infections are spreading.

A closer look at the data means, who is actually being hospitalized and what is their median age? Is the data controlled for age and pre-existing conditions?

As far as comparisons between between countries, what are these "unvaccinated countries" that are not having the same problems. Are they poor third world countries that have given up altogether, or first world countries? How much testing are they doing? Maybe everyone there has already been exposed?

Which are the "unvaccinated countries" that we should compare to Singapore?

I'll note also in passing, that in Japan, cases, deaths and hospitalizations are currently falling, not rising:

https://toyokeizai.net/sp/visual/tko/covid19/en.html

Singapore may be a victim of its own success here. They did such a great job of controlling the disease up till now with NPIs (quarantine, testing, tracing, etc.) that it could only rise, not fall, because it was near zero to begin with.
Hotarubi
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Hotarubi »

xouper wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:17 am
Hotarubi wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:57 am As usual I am thankful to the experts that feel they do not need to provide data or evidence for their claims.

At least paranormal woos provide *something*.
No one here cares what you think.
QED
Hotarubi
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Hotarubi »

xouper wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:15 am
Hotarubi wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:14 am
xouper wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:06 am
Hotarubi wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:28 am
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:07 pm

One of my relatives is a pharmacist in a hospital and she is vehemently against mandating vaccinations. Is she an idiot? I don't think so.
Ask her who won the battle of Camulodunum. Let's find out.
Sorry, not taking your troll bait.
Yes. You have no sense of humor. We know.

It's also a valid point of satire Too clever for you, obviously.
Again, not taking your troll bait.
It's not troll bait, but funny to see you say you're not taking it while "taking it."

Too funny. Now remember that I'm holding you to standards....
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

Anaxagoras wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:41 am

Well, I would like to take a closer look at the data.
I agree.

The data is of course crucially important.

Not actually knowing means no science can be accurate


There actually are many nations with zero Covid, zero cases and zero deaths

At least 20 of them
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

One thing that is known, for certain, is fully vaccinated people can die from Covid

It’s also certain that India is using ivermectin to prevent deaths


Africa is the real unknown, but the lack of news from the huge populations there is very fucking strange
Anaxagoras
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

robinson wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:55 am There actually are many nations with zero Covid, zero cases and zero deaths

At least 20 of them
Umm, such as?

Here's a list I found on the internet. I don't know whether it's true, but I'll believe that Pitcairn Island has not been touched by Covid (However, they have all apparently been vaccinated. All 47 of them.)
Countries With No Reported COVID-19 Cases

Cook Islands
Federated States of Micronesia
Kiribati
Nauru
Niue
North Korea
Pitcairn Islands
Saint Helena
Tokelau
Tonga
Turkmenistan
Tuvalu
Vanuatu
Marshall Islands
Solomon Islands
On this list, most of them are remote Pacific islands, and the exceptions are North Korea, which is a secretive hermit kingdom and I don't trust anything they say. The other one is Turkmenistan. As for Turkmenistan:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58583212

Yes, they have Covid in Turkmenistan, but the government does not acknowledge it. They refer to it as "pneumonia" there and pretend that it doesn't exist.


So the list seems to consist of countries that are either remote isolated islands or totalitarian dictatorships where the official state media only reports government propaganda.

Not very persuasive.
Doctor X
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

Hotarubi wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:16 amToo funny. Now remember that I'm holding you to standards....
One of the worst appeals to authority, I would even characterize it as "inappropriate authority," I have witnessed in some time.

– J.D.
Pyrrho
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/960344
Pfizer Inc will study the effectiveness of its vaccine against COVID-19 by inoculating the whole population over the age of 12 in a town in southern Brazil, the company said on Wednesday.
Hotarubi
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Hotarubi »

Doctor X wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:44 pm
Hotarubi wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:16 amToo funny. Now remember that I'm holding you to standards....
One of the worst appeals to authority, I would even characterize it as "inappropriate authority," I have witnessed in some time.

– J.D.
Fools, wilfully ignorant. Etc.

Thanks for caring.
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

The isolated countries (island nations really) with zero covid, after being 100% vaccinated, are the true test of how well the vaccines work

This of course means allowing people in who are infected. Probably never going to happen, but if it did, we would have real data
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

In reality, Covid 19 can only spread by active infections, people spreading the virus

Not allowing infected people to spread the deadly virus actually works


The mRNA injections, not very well
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

The variants is another issue
Anaxagoras
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

robinson wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:58 am It’s also certain that India is using ivermectin to prevent deaths
https://www.indiatoday.in/coronavirus-o ... 2021-09-26
"Why HCQ and Ivermectin were removed from India’s Covid-19 treatment protocol"

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 55113.html
"ICMR removes Ivermectin, HCQ from revised guidelines on Covid-19 treatment"
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/
Pyrrho
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... e-boosters
The Food and Drug Administration released briefing documents Tuesday on booster shots for the Moderna and Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccines ahead of a two-day public meeting of advisers to the agency that starts Thursday.
PDF:

https://www.fda.gov/media/152953/download

Meeting announcement page:

https://www.fda.gov/advisory-committees ... nouncement

Might be informative if anyone cares to indulge in the advisory committee experience. You'd get to observe while the "sponsors", Moderna and J&J, state their case, and while the FDA makes their statements, and while the experts on the advisory panel--hopefully--grill the sponsors and ask questions.
Doctor X
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

Anaxagoras wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:12 amWell there's a member of this forum who has taken that position:
Former member, now sockpuppet, who spouts uncritical and willfully ignorant proclamations?

馬鹿は死ななきゃ直らない。

雨の中に [ダメ– Ed.]

– J.D.