The Covid vaccines really do work

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robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

Anaxagoras wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:41 am
robinson wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:47 am If you have multiple countries with pretty much everyone vaccinated, and deaths and cases are increasing In these countries, how do you spin that?

Especially when unvaccinated countries are not having the same problem?
Well, I would like to take a closer look at the data. One possible explanation is that Singapore had been pursuing a "Covid-zero" strategy, as Ceptimus mentioned, and it had been working so well that there were very few infections before the measures were relaxed. Now that they are going back to normal, infections are spreading.
That might be, but it doesn't answer the question, or questions. Island nations (and isolated communities/individuals), who have no exposure to any of the novel C19 strains, really want to know the answers.

In case it's too complicated, here is a simple version.

If everyone is vaccinated, and everyone has no exposure to the virus, and the country opens up for travel, and vaccinated people now show up, and they carry the virus, and infect vaccinated people, and then people get sick and die, how the fuck do you spin that?

And how the fuck can you claim the 'vaccines' work?
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

It's not a moot point.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

1. There have never been any claims by the pharmaceutical companies or CDC or the FDA that the vaccines are 100% effective.

2. Go to 1.
Last edited by Pyrrho on Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

robinson wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:56 am
Anaxagoras wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:41 am
robinson wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:47 am If you have multiple countries with pretty much everyone vaccinated, and deaths and cases are increasing In these countries, how do you spin that?

Especially when unvaccinated countries are not having the same problem?
Well, I would like to take a closer look at the data. One possible explanation is that Singapore had been pursuing a "Covid-zero" strategy, as Ceptimus mentioned, and it had been working so well that there were very few infections before the measures were relaxed. Now that they are going back to normal, infections are spreading.
That might be, but it doesn't answer the question, or questions. Island nations (and isolated communities/individuals), who have no exposure to any of the novel C19 strains, really want to know the answers.

In case it's too complicated, here is a simple version.

If everyone is vaccinated, and everyone has no exposure to the virus, and the country opens up for travel, and vaccinated people now show up, and they carry the virus, and infect vaccinated people, and then people get sick and die, how the fuck do you spin that?

And how the fuck can you claim the 'vaccines' work?
Imaginary scenarios plus the word "fuck" do not make the imaginary scenarios into "fact".
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

robinson wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:20 am https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/
Meta-analyses are dependent upon the quality of the source studies. Unfortunately, those meta-analyses show no significance once the faulty studies are removed from the meta-analyses.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58170809

As always, talk to your doctor, but that's only a suggestion.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Pyrrho wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:27 am 1. There have never been any claims by the pharmaceutical companies or CDS or the FDA that the vaccines are 100% effective.
The next question is, compare the effectiveness of various vaccines.

Are the covid vaccines** more or less effective than vaccines for things like polio or smallpox?

Or are the covid vaccines significantly less effective than traditional vaccines?







** And I use the term "vaccine" here in its loose sense, since according to the traditional legal definition (not the newly revised CDC definition) they are not actually "vaccines".
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

xouper wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:35 pm
Pyrrho wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:27 am 1. There have never been any claims by the pharmaceutical companies or CDS or the FDA that the vaccines are 100% effective.
The next question is, compare the effectiveness of various vaccines.

Are the covid vaccines** more or less effective than vaccines for things like polio or smallpox?

Or are the covid vaccines significantly less effective than traditional vaccines?

** And I use the term "vaccine" here in its loose sense, since according to the traditional legal definition (not the newly revised CDC definition) they are not actually "vaccines".
Each of the several vaccines has a different efficacy/safety profile, and for any given vaccine, the efficacy/safety profile is different for each sub-population. For example, the Moderna vaccine data from the clinical trials show that it is more effective in younger subjects than in older subjects. It will be different in any given person.

CDC has statistics about the effectiveness of various vaccines, including polio vaccine:

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/ ... ction.html

Another comparison:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... g-vaccines

The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines demonstrate comparable efficacy. Likewise, the J&J and AstraZeneca vaccines demonstrate efficacy comparable to the common "flu shot".

Not getting into semantic arguments over the definition of "vaccine". Times change; so do the definitions of words.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

Obviously. When one claims the mRNA injections are vaccines, the word vaccine has been changed

When one claims they work, the word "work" now means something different.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

robinson wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:30 pm Obviously. When one claims the mRNA injections are vaccines, the word vaccine has been changed

When one claims they work, the word "work" now means something different.
The clinical data show that they are safe and effective beyond the level of placebo, and that's what the word "works" means for any medical treatment.

But these are tangential questions. No doubt that the mRNA vaccines put medical practice into new technology, just as CAR-T treatments and CRISPR put medical practice into new technology, as well as treatments for spinal muscular atrophy...or, for that matter, monoclonal antibodies such as the Regeneron therapy.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Pyrrho wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:08 pm Not getting into semantic arguments over the definition of "vaccine". Times change; so do the definitions of words.
My bad. I was not intending to get into a semantic argument. That would be for another thread.

I was merely trying to be clear which definition I was using, since, as you seem to agree, the definition has changed.

I agree with your obeservation, times change, definitions change. However, legal definitions must be changed legally.

If we were discussing the legal implications of a vaccine mandate, then the legal definition is what the courts will use. For example, when it is argued that there are legal precedents for vaccine mandates, then there might be a legal problem applying that to the covid "vaccines" since (according to legal experts I have consulted) they do not qualify as vaccines under those court precedents.

But that's a conversation for another thread.


Getting back on topic: Since the claim is that the current covid vaccines are sufficiently effective, then that effectively undermines the justification for a mandate to protect the vaccinated from the unvaccinated.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

Obviously
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

Since medical and emergency responders have to be in close contact, and can’t know the status of those they are helping, if the “vaccine” doesn’t give immunity, and worse, doesn’t prevent transmission, the “vaccine” doesn’t “work”

Unlike immunity, you only have the assurance you won’t get as sick or die as often

Getting the virus, and then spreading it, isn’t really the protection people want, and they are trying to sell it as a great solution, which is nonsense

In fact it is horseshit
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

Now if the definition is “when you get the virus you won’t get that sick and usually won’t die”, and then after you fight off the virus you have immunity, that would be an honest claim
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

Of course long term serious side effects from the mRNA virus you were injected with is another story


Like with getting Covid, most people don’t have to worry about it


But if just one healthy person loses their ability to work and live life, from the mRNA virus, that a real problem

But then so is getting the Chinese virus, so it should be a choice people have


Not a demand or a decision made under duress
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

xouper wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:41 pm
Pyrrho wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:08 pm Not getting into semantic arguments over the definition of "vaccine". Times change; so do the definitions of words.
My bad. I was not intending to get into a semantic argument. That would be for another thread.

I was merely trying to be clear which definition I was using, since, as you seem to agree, the definition has changed.

I agree with your obeservation, times change, definitions change. However, legal definitions must be changed legally.

If we were discussing the legal implications of a vaccine mandate, then the legal definition is what the courts will use. For example, when it is argued that there are legal precedents for vaccine mandates, then there might be a legal problem applying that to the covid "vaccines" since (according to legal experts I have consulted) they do not qualify as vaccines under those court precedents.

But that's a conversation for another thread.


Getting back on topic: Since the claim is that the current covid vaccines are sufficiently effective, then that effectively undermines the justification for a mandate to protect the vaccinated from the unvaccinated.
I believe the intent is to diminish the number of infected, and the number of COVID-19 cases, not "to protect the vaccinated from the unvaccinated." I am unaware of any "legal definition" of the term "vaccine". I am aware of dictionary definition of the term.

It is the unvaccinated who are at most risk, at least that's what the data indicate. Also, there is a definite burden on hospitals in many locations, caused by COVID-19 cases, and that, too, is what the vaccine mandates apparently are intended to diminish, along with the pandemic in general.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

I've nothing more to say. The data are available; FDA reviews are available; opinions abound. I've been vaccinated, I wear a mask, and I'll get a booster if that's what my doctor advises, and I agree with my company's requirement--which predates any of the current mandates--that I be vaccinated if I want to work in the office. That is my opinion, reached after much evaluation of the evidence supporting vaccination in this pandemic. I've seen no indication that "herd immunity" is possible or practical, let alone the various and sundry home remedies advised by better men than I. Then again, I am probably biased, because two of my elderly relatives died painful, miserable deaths from COVID-19 they contracted from an unvaccinated, unmasked home healthcare nurse.

Have at it.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

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https://luis46pr.wordpress.com/2021/08/ ... e-effects/
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

The big problem I have is that the authorities lie, and it’s about money
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

I’m sure the current mRNA promoters would also have been cheering on the disastrous swine flu vaccine

And dismissing all evidence that it was a bad idea
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Pyrrho wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:07 pm
xouper wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:41 pm Getting back on topic: Since the claim is that the current covid vaccines are sufficiently effective, then that effectively undermines the justification for a mandate to protect the vaccinated from the unvaccinated.
I believe the intent is to diminish the number of infected, and the number of COVID-19 cases, not "to protect the vaccinated from the unvaccinated."
Those are Biden's exact words when he announced the vaccine mandate.

https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1436323810886754313
President Biden @POTUS
United States government official
We are going to protect the vaccinated workers from unvaccinated coworkers.


Pyrrho wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:07 pm I am unaware of any "legal definition" of the term "vaccine". I am aware of dictionary definition of the term.
Are you asking me for a citation?

Pyrrho wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:07 pm It is the unvaccinated who are at most risk, at least that's what the data indicate.
That's what the data seem to show so far. There is new data coming out of Israel, for example, that suggests that the vaccinated, if infected, are experiencing worse outcomes than the unvaccinated. I have not been able to confirm that. Like any good skeptic, I need to wait for more data.

Pyrrho wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:07 pm Also, there is a definite burden on hospitals in many locations, caused by COVID-19 cases, and that, too, is what the vaccine mandates apparently are intended to diminish, along with the pandemic in general.
I agree that there are many good reasons to get vaccinated. I do not criticize anyone who has been vaccinated.

My position is that getting vaccinated should be a personal choice, regardless. My body, my choice.

Imagine how much less burden there would be on hospitals if there were no smokers, or drunk drivers, or obese people, etc. Is that really where you want to go with your observation about "burden on hospitals"?
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Pyrrho wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:10 pm I've nothing more to say.
I hear ya. Not a problem.

My condolences about your relatives. That sucks.

My sister got covid and seemed to be recovering and free of the virus so they let her go home last week. Yesterday, she is now back in the hospital. Earlier this year, my younger brother was diagnosed with cancer and the latest prognosis is he won't make it past six weeks.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

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Anaxagoras
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

robinson wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:47 am In case it's too complicated, here is a simple version.

If everyone is vaccinated, and everyone has no exposure to the virus, and the country opens up for travel, and vaccinated people now show up, and they carry the virus, and infect vaccinated people, and then people get sick and die, how the fuck do you spin that?

And how the fuck can you claim the 'vaccines' work?
Do seatbelts "work"? I would say yes. But do they always prevent a bad outcome in a car crash? Unfortunately, no.

It works in that sense. Of course, you still find examples where a seatbelt didn't help. But if it reduces the number of bad outcomes, and mitigates the damage often enough, it works. Same with motorcycle helmets and airbags. It doesn't mean you can now drive like a maniac; you still need to be careful.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »



There is a huge difference between a law that requires using a seatbelt while in a moving car and injecting chemicals into one’s system. Yes, both acts involve attempts to promote public safety. But the former’s interference with liberty is de minimus, while the latter is one of the most potentially portentous that can be asked of people.


A better example would be having the state require every male to wear a condom during sex, unless the sex is to have a child.

The benefits in prevention of disease and death (HIV) is exactly the same as the Covid reasoning

just think of the HIV and other VDs that would be prevented — serious illnesses and deaths avoided — if all men did that. Think of the fewer unwanted pregnancies and subsequent abortions. And, more like seat belts than vaccination, the action required would be wholly external with zero risk of side effects.
Last edited by robinson on Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

Ball is in your court
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

"Experimental gene therapy"? It is neither gene therapy nor experimental at this stage. Also, this thread is not about vaccine mandates. It's about whether the vaccines work or not. Don't assume that everyone who is pro-vaccine is pro-mandate. I'm conflicted on that; I think the cons of a mandate might outweigh the pros.

The thing is that the serious side effects are very rare, deaths, if and when they are genuinely caused by the vaccine, and not merely a coincidence due to the huge numbers of people taking it, also appear to be much rarer than deaths caused by the virus. So the analogy to seatbelts seems like a reasonable one to me.

Bell's palsy I looked up. It seems to be a rare side effect, but is usually temporary and not life-threatening. Even myocarditis seems to be something that is usually a temporary condition:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... ditis.html
Most patients with myocarditis or pericarditis who received care responded well to medicine and rest and felt better quickly.
In the end, it's a question of which risk is greater, the risk from the vaccine or the risk from the virus. All evidence seems to show that the risk from the virus is much greater than the risk from the vaccine. Of course, the risk from the virus varies greatly depending on one's age, sex and health condition (men under 60 are about 4 times more likely to die from it than women under 60). There is another separate public health question and an ethical question: should those at lower risk from the virus still get vaccinated to protect those at higher risk? The answer is less clear, so I hesitate to call for a mandate.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

ceptimus
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by ceptimus »

xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:07 pm In many hospitals these days, the majority of covid patients are vaccinated, which renders your argument invalid.
First, let's see the evidence about the majority of covid patients being vaccinated.

Second, even if it's true, it doesn't render my argument invalid necessarily. If 80% of the adult population are vaccinated (that is, four times as many people are vaccinated as are not vaccinated) and there are twice as many vaccinated covid patients as unvaccinated ones, then that still supports my argument: having the vaccine would make you half as likely to be hospitalized due to covid.

There are many confounding factors to do with the age distribution of vaccinated people, and the age distribution of hospitalized covid patients. Also, you need to remember that there is a delay between the vaccine being administered, and the person receiving the vaccine developing the increased resistance to becoming severely ill due to covid.

All the studies I've looked at seem to show that taking the vaccine renders you much less likely to become severely ill, or die, due to covid; but I'd be interested to see any studies that appear to show that the opposite is the case.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

I already asked xouper for evidence and he ignored me. Maybe you’ll have better luck.

Another question I have about it is what is the median age of hospitalized people who are vaccinated. This actually makes a huge difference because vaccinated people are significantly older on average than the unvaccinated. And older people are at orders of magnitude higher risk.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

Did I miss the cogent and evidence-based argument against vaccination?

Damn!

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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Apparently so, yes.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Anaxagoras wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:00 am I already asked xouper for evidence and he ignored me.
If you are interested in the evidence, you know how to find it.

I'm not interested in arguing with anyone about it.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

I'll try to be as thorough as I can (for an internet post) to explain why you need to take age into account.

Let's start here, with information that we all probably know by now:

Risk for COVID-19 Infection, Hospitalization, and Death By Age Group (CDC)

If the 18-29 years old age group is taken as the reference group for comparison, every decade you add to that increases the risk of hospitalization and mortality. The risk of hospitalization is 2x greater and the risk of death is 4x greater in 30-39 year olds, in 40-49 year olds it's 2x and 10x, in 50-64 year olds it's 4x and 30x, in 65-74 year olds it's 5x and 90x, in 75-84 year olds it's 9x and 220x and in over-85s it's 15x and 570x.

Meanwhile, given the increased risk to older people, older people are also more likely to get vaccinated than younger people.
According to CDC data, 81% of those over 75 are fully vaccinated. 86% of those from 65-74 (the most highly vaccinated age range). Below that, the vaccination rate drops with each age range: 74% for 50-64, 66% for 40-49, 57% for 25-39, 53% for 18-24, 52% for 16-17, and 45% for 12-15.

So the median age for vaccinated people will be quite a bit higher than that of unvaccinated people.

Here's another CDC report:
SARS-CoV-2 Infections and Hospitalizations Among Persons Aged ≥16 Years, by Vaccination Status — Los Angeles County, California, May 1–July 25, 2021
Among hospitalized persons and persons admitted to an intensive care unit, the median age was higher among vaccinated persons (median = 64 years, interquartile range [IQR] = 53.0–76.0 years; median = 64 years, IQR = 54.0–76.0 years, respectively) and partially vaccinated persons (median = 59, IQR = 46.0–72.0; median = 65, IQR = 57.0–80.0, respectively) than among unvaccinated persons (median = 49, IQR = 35.0–62.0; median = 56, IQR = 41.0–66.0, respectively) (p<0.001). A lower percentage of fully vaccinated (1.2%) and partially vaccinated (2.0%) persons were admitted to a hospital after their SARS-CoV-2 positive test result date compared with unvaccinated persons (4.2%). A lower percentage of deaths (0.2%, 24) occurred among fully vaccinated persons than among partially vaccinated (0.5%, seven) and unvaccinated (0.6%, 176) persons (p<0.001). Death investigations determined that six of the 24 fully vaccinated persons who died had immunocompromising conditions, including HIV infection, cancer (i.e., prostate, pancreatic, lung, or leukemia), and liver transplantation, and that the median age was higher among vaccinated (median = 78 years, IQR = 63.5–87.5 years) and partially vaccinated (median = 74, IQR = 58.0–80.0) persons than among unvaccinated persons (median = 63, IQR = 51.5–79.5) (p = 0.01).
I hope the above is understandable. The median age of vaccinated people who were hospitalized was 64, compared to 49 for unvaccinated people who were hospitalized (15 year age difference). The median age of vaccinated people who died was 78, compared to 63 for unvaccinated people who died (also a 15 year age difference). And some were immunocompromised to begin with.

It's almost like being vaccinated reduces one's risk to be comparable to that of someone 15 years younger.

Here's the per capita age-adjusted rates:
Among all Los Angeles County residents, the age-adjusted 7-day incidence and hospitalization rates increased exponentially among unvaccinated, fully vaccinated, and partially vaccinated persons, with the highest rates among unvaccinated persons in late June (Figure 1). On May 1, in unvaccinated persons, the age-adjusted incidence (35.2 per 100,000 population) was 8.4 times and the age-adjusted hospitalization rate (4.6 per 100,000 population) was 10.0 times the rates in fully vaccinated persons (4.2 and 0.46, respectively). Partially vaccinated persons had a similar incidence (4.1) and hospitalization rate (0.27) as fully vaccinated persons. On July 25, the age-adjusted incidence in unvaccinated persons (315.1) was 4.9 times that in fully vaccinated persons (63.8); the rate among partially vaccinated persons was 46.8. The age-adjusted hospitalization rate in unvaccinated persons (29.4) was 29.2 times the rate in fully vaccinated persons (1.0); the hospitalization rate was similar in partially vaccinated persons (0.90) (Supplementary Table; https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/109087).
So in summary, to understand how effective the vaccines are, you need to adjust for age and per capita, because vaccines are not evenly distributed among the population.

I hope what I'm saying makes sense. :notsure:

On the other hand, it does appear that vaccines do not always prevent infection (and transmission) per se, but they do reduce the number of hospitalizations and deaths.

COVID vaccines cut the risk of transmitting Delta — but not for long (Nature)
The first study to look directly at how well vaccines prevent the spread of the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2 brings good news and bad.

The study shows that people who become infected with the Delta variant are less likely to pass the virus to their close contacts if they have already had a COVID-19 vaccine than if they haven’t1. But that protective effect is relatively small, and dwindles alarmingly at three months after the receipt of the second shot.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

So what you are saying, Anax, is we should NOT get vaccinated, and you want to Make Japan America Great Again.











何?

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P.S. Jesus was a space alien!
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

xouper wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:47 am
Anaxagoras wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:00 am I already asked xouper for evidence and he ignored me.
If you are interested in the evidence, you know how to find it.

I'm not interested in arguing with anyone about it.
No, because you haven't even said what it is.

You gave a one-word answer to my question that did not clarify anything.

I know how to search for something, but only if I know what to search for. Why won't you tell me what you are talking about?

In the post above, I explain why you also need to consider the ages of the people who are being hospitalized, and I provided several links.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

All humor aside, I still seem to see no cogent and evidence-based argument against vaccination.

– J.D.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

When the swine flu vaccine was rushed into production and used on millions of Americans, especially children and those at risk, there were people saying there should be more testing, long term studies, and there was great risk from using a vaccine on billions of people that we didn't really know anything about long term consequences, or what side effects could happen.

Of course those pushing the vaccine (and especially those making unimaginable profit from it) called those people vaccine deniers, idiots, opponents of science, and tried to impeach their testimony, and these same self satisfied fucktards "knew" they were right. And after all, the danger was so great it was worth the risk.

(one person died from the novel swine flu virus)

The Guillain-Barré Syndrome that resulted from the vaccines was the actual problem, which was denied at first, but after so many healthy people got sick from the vaccine, they eventually had to stop using it, and sort of admit it was a really really fucking bad idea.
The emphasis upon the remarkably large number of cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome which resulted from the 1976 National Swine Influenza immunization program in the U.S.A. has obscured the fact that other neurological complications, involving the central nervous system also occurred.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6128862/

Despite the overwhelming evidence that vaccines cause serious side effects, illness, permanent disability, suffering and even death, for some people, that vaccine pushers still want to label and insult anyone who mentions it, because they are fascist at heart. They don't want informed consent, they despise freedom for an individual, and they are 100% sure vaccines are safe and only some defective person would not jump on their bandwagon of lunacy.

This was true for the polio vaccine, smallpox, and almost every other vaccine.

While this may seem a bit much for the topic, it's actually the topic.
xouper
Posts: 11741
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Title: mere ghost of his former self

Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Anaxagoras wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:46 am
xouper wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:47 am
Anaxagoras wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:00 am I already asked xouper for evidence and he ignored me.
If you are interested in the evidence, you know how to find it.

I'm not interested in arguing with anyone about it.
No, because you haven't even said what it is.

You gave a one-word answer to my question that did not clarify anything.

I know how to search for something, but only if I know what to search for. Why won't you tell me what you are talking about?

In the post above, I explain why you also need to consider the ages of the people who are being hospitalized, and I provided several links.
Thanks for posting all that. Yes, I have already looked at all that.

Let's look again at my "one-word answer" that apparently needs some clarification:

xouper wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:04 am
Anaxagoras wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:28 am
xouper wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:07 pm In many hospitals these days, the majority of covid patients are vaccinated, which renders your argument invalid.
I'm curious about this assertion. Where did you hear about that?

Here's what I found, from an internet search:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/vast-majority ... d=79128401
Vast majority of ICU patients with COVID-19 are unvaccinated, ABC News survey finds

Of the 271 total COVID patients in the surveyed ICUs, 255 patients, or approximately 94%, were unvaccinated against COVID-19 in ABC News' snapshot in time.
That's from a couple months ago. Is there some new data to contradict this?
Yes.
Here's the longer version: Yes, there are new data that "In many hospitals these days, the majority of covid patients are vaccinated."
xouper
Posts: 11741
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Title: mere ghost of his former self

Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Doctor X wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:48 am All humor aside, I still seem to see no cogent and evidence-based argument against vaccination.

– J.D.
Just because it has not (yet) been posted in this thread does not mean such an argument does not exist.

Here's one example of a "cogent and evidence-based argument against vaccination":

Short form: If a person has already recovered from covid (especially those who were infected before the vaccines were available) and now has natural immunity, then many experts argue that the risk/benefit analysis for getting the vaccination favors not getting it.

You may not agree with that argument, but it is indeed cogent and is also evidence based.

And no, I'm not going to argue with you about it. Those who are sincerely interested in reviewing that evidence know how to find it. Those who (falsely) insist that such evidence does not exist merely because I did not post it here, are perhaps not arguing in good faith.
Anaxagoras
Posts: 29582
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Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan

Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

xouper wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:50 pm Here's the longer version: Yes, there are new data that "In many hospitals these days, the majority of covid patients are vaccinated."
Cannot find a single example. Found this from a hospital in Tennessee:
Link: https://twitter.com/BalladHealth/status/1448680114200399877