The Covid vaccines really do work

xouper · Post by **xouper** » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:34 am

Doctor X wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:06 am
Unvaccinated COVID-19 hospitalizations cost billions of dollars
Health System Tracker

That information is interesting and useful. Thanks for posting it.

robinson · Post by **robinson** » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:32 pm

xouper wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:33 pm
Doctor X wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:29 pm Well, we have established that he has no interest in evidence or, therefore, reality.

– J.D.
That is blatantly false. You have established no such thing.

X is not a fan of honesty or reality

Anaxagoras · Post by **Anaxagoras** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:13 am

Update on the current situation in Japan:

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covi ... tribution/

Infections peaked here at 183/million in late August, but have decreased a lot since then and are now only 4/million. That's almost 98% down from the peak. Remains to be seen if there will be a rebound, but I'm not yet seeing signs of a rebound.

https://toyokeizai.net/sp/visual/tko/covid19/en.html

I would imagine that logically, there will likely be a rebound like they had in Israel, since it won't go to zero.

One difference though is that everyone here is still masking (but they were masking during the last wave too, so maybe that doesn't make a huge difference).

Anaxagoras · Post by **Anaxagoras** » Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:30 am

He's talking about this recent publication:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... stinsights

Coronavirus (COVID-19) latest insights
A live roundup of the latest data and trends about the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic from the ONS and other sources.

19 October 2021

Their bottom line seems to be that "Two vaccine doses give similar protection as previous infection".

Similar protection to natural immunity, but without having the disease and without the possibility of spreading it to others.

Neither previous infection nor vaccines offer complete immunity.

sparks · Post by **sparks** » Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:01 pm

I'm looking forward to the release of the booster for peeps in my age group because I think I got cheated on the first dose: No control chips and no tentacled meanies in my batch damnit! :-)

Doctor X · Post by **Doctor X** » Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:03 pm

You are why Colin Powell died then, sparks.

– J.D.

Ben Trovado · Post by **Ben Trovado** » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:02 pm

Anaxagoras wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:30 am
Their bottom line seems to be that "Two vaccine doses give similar protection as previous infection".

Similar protection to natural immunity, but without having the disease and without the possibility of spreading it to others.

Neither previous infection nor vaccines offer complete immunity.

Minor quibble on the bolded part. I thought they were saying that having the vaccine did NOT prevent spreading it to others. Several school districts have stated that kids, for example, will have to continue wearing masks even after vaccination. Likewise a number of other state officials.

No argument on the shots being better than catching it - but if that part is true, is it new info (it may well be; I'll admit they may have released something new I have not seen)? Or are the officials requiring masking after the shots just crazy or overcautious?

Ben Trovado · Post by **Ben Trovado** » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:04 pm

Sparks, in the Conservatory, with a Rope.

Pyrrho · Post by **Pyrrho** » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:27 pm

Ben Trovado wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:02 pm
Anaxagoras wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:30 am
Their bottom line seems to be that "Two vaccine doses give similar protection as previous infection".

Similar protection to natural immunity, but without having the disease and without the possibility of spreading it to others.

Neither previous infection nor vaccines offer complete immunity.
Minor quibble on the bolded part. I thought they were saying that having the vaccine did NOT prevent spreading it to others. Several school districts have stated that kids, for example, will have to continue wearing masks even after vaccination. Likewise a number of other state officials.

No argument on the shots being better than catching it - but if that part is true, is it new info (it may well be; I'll admit they may have released something new I have not seen)? Or are the officials requiring masking after the shots just crazy or overcautious?

Breakthrough infections are occurring in vaccinated people, and even in unvaccinated people, symptomless infections occur, so my guess is it's the classic "Out of an abundance of caution," which might be interpreted as "We seek to avoid getting sued if someone gets sick."

Pyrrho · Post by **Pyrrho** » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:30 pm

The FDA has authorized booster shots for the Moderna and J&J vaccines.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... e-boosters

The Food and Drug Administration authorized booster doses of the COVID-19 vaccines made by Moderna and Johnson & Johnson following unanimous votes by a committee of independent advisers backing the boosters last week.

In a related decision, the FDA also authorized boosters that differ from the vaccine originally used to immunize people against COVID-19. So, for instance, a person who got a Johnson & Johnson vaccine could receive one from Moderna or Pfizer-BioNTech as a booster.

sparks · Post by **sparks** » Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:45 am

Doctor X wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:03 pm You are why Colin Powell died then, sparks.

– J.D.

He was simply too nice. And you know what happens to ... nice.

Anaxagoras · Post by **Anaxagoras** » Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:56 am

Ben Trovado wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:02 pm
Anaxagoras wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:30 am
Their bottom line seems to be that "Two vaccine doses give similar protection as previous infection".

Similar protection to natural immunity, but without having the disease and without the possibility of spreading it to others.

Neither previous infection nor vaccines offer complete immunity.
Minor quibble on the bolded part. I thought they were saying that having the vaccine did NOT prevent spreading it to others. Several school districts have stated that kids, for example, will have to continue wearing masks even after vaccination. Likewise a number of other state officials.

No argument on the shots being better than catching it - but if that part is true, is it new info (it may well be; I'll admit they may have released something new I have not seen)? Or are the officials requiring masking after the shots just crazy or overcautious?

What I meant is that the act of getting vaccinated itself doesn't involve the possibility of spreading a virus to others. (Unlike getting infected on purpose for "natural immunity" which post-skeptic advocates) A vaccinated person could nevertheless get infected and spread it, but getting vaccinated reduces the risk of that.

Doctor X · Post by **Doctor X** » Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:19 am

Though getting the vaccine reduces your risk of transmitting the virus if you do suffer a breakthrough infection.

Evidences: Yale Medicine

– J.D.

Hotarubi · Post by **Hotarubi** » Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:38 am

Doctor X wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:19 am Though getting the vaccine reduces your risk of transmitting the virus if you do suffer a breakthrough infection.

Evidences: Yale Medicine

– J.D.

But does your pharmacist agree?

Doctor X · Post by **Doctor X** » Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:35 pm

She does prefer the stronger homeopathic version.

– J.D.

Ben Trovado · Post by **Ben Trovado** » Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:45 pm

Anaxagoras wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:56 am
Ben Trovado wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:02 pm
Anaxagoras wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:30 am
Their bottom line seems to be that "Two vaccine doses give similar protection as previous infection".

Similar protection to natural immunity, but without having the disease and without the possibility of spreading it to others.

Neither previous infection nor vaccines offer complete immunity.
Minor quibble on the bolded part. I thought they were saying that having the vaccine did NOT prevent spreading it to others. Several school districts have stated that kids, for example, will have to continue wearing masks even after vaccination. Likewise a number of other state officials.

No argument on the shots being better than catching it - but if that part is true, is it new info (it may well be; I'll admit they may have released something new I have not seen)? Or are the officials requiring masking after the shots just crazy or overcautious?
What I meant is that the act of getting vaccinated itself doesn't involve the possibility of spreading a virus to others. (Unlike getting infected on purpose for "natural immunity" which post-skeptic advocates) A vaccinated person could nevertheless get infected and spread it, but getting vaccinated reduces the risk of that.

I get you. As I said, it was just a quibble, but that covers my only hesitancy.

Pyrrho · Post by **Pyrrho** » Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:42 pm

Pfizer press release about Phase 3 trial data regarding booster shots:

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-relea ... ta-showing

Doctor X · Post by **Doctor X** » Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:00 pm

Did Pfizer vote for Biden?

How can we judge the study without that data?

– J.D.

Anaxagoras · Post by **Anaxagoras** » Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:03 pm

First sentence in the press release and I'm already confused.

First results from any randomized, controlled COVID-19 vaccine booster trial demonstrate a relative vaccine efficacy of 95.6% against disease during a period when Delta was the prevalent strain

"Any" randomized, controlled COVID-19 vaccine booster trial? How many of them did they do? :?

Doctor X · Post by **Doctor X** » Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:16 pm

I think that is just boiler plate to tout that they have the first publishable results.

– J.D.

Anaxagoras · Post by **Anaxagoras** » Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:02 am

I guess that's a way to parse it. As an excuse, I had just woken up and my brain wasn't working yet. :oops:

Doctor X · Post by **Doctor X** » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:01 am

https://c.tenor.com/-fBDS2LvKjMAAAAM/anime-coffee.gif

馬鹿に付ける薬だよ！

– J.D.

Anaxagoras · Post by **Anaxagoras** » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:32 am

Anyway, this seems to be the meat of the thing:

All trial participants previously completed the primary two-dose series of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, and then were randomized 1:1 to receive either a 30-µg booster dose (the same dosage strength as those in the primary series) or placebo. The median time between second dose and administration of the booster dose or placebo was approximately 11 months. Symptomatic COVID-19 occurrence was measured from at least 7 days after booster or placebo, with a median follow-up of 2.5 months. During the study period, there were 5 cases of COVID-19 in the booster group, and 109 cases in the non-boosted group. The observed relative vaccine efficacy of 95.6% (95% CI: 89.3, 98.6) reflects the reduction in disease occurrence in the boosted group versus the non-boosted group in those without evidence of prior SARS-CoV-2 infection. Median age of participants was 53 years, with 55.5% of participants between 16 and 55 years, and 23.3% of participants 65 years and older. Multiple subgroup analyses showed efficacy was consistent irrespective of age, sex, race, ethnicity, or comorbid conditions.

I assume that this was double-blinded? Maybe it says somewhere and I missed it.

Nobody knew who had the placebo and who had the booster dose until after the diagnoses of COVID-19 were made (neither the subjects themselves nor the people who would diagnose them). :notsure:

Anaxagoras · Post by **Anaxagoras** » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:36 am

It's both good news and bad news in a way, as it also shows (confirms) that the effectiveness of the initial two dose regimen wanes considerably in less than a year.

Doctor X · Post by **Doctor X** » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:46 am

Though did any in the placebo group require hospitalization and/or cremation?

– J.D.

sparks · Post by **sparks** » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:25 pm

I require cremation and I'm not dead yet!! :-)

Anaxagoras · Post by **Anaxagoras** » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:34 pm

‘Eee’s not dead yet!

sparks · Post by **sparks** » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:47 pm

"I'm feeling much better!"

(Whack)

However, my liver is dead, you could take that. Place what's left in a jar, send it to Doc_X and he can put it on his Wall Of Weird in his home on Hannibal Island. BTW Doc, I'm still waiting for my invite to the Fava bean festival....

Doctor X · Post by **Doctor X** » Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:49 pm

I do not like beans.

– J.D.

sparks · Post by **sparks** » Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:59 pm

That is priceless! Thank you. :-)

"And I don't smoke...shit."

Ben Trovado · Post by **Ben Trovado** » Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:36 pm

I can't die until they find a safe place to store my liver, actually.

Hotarubi · Post by **Hotarubi** » Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:02 pm

Ben Trovado wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:36 pm I can't die until they find a safe place to store my liver, actually.

Even then they'll have to marinate it for a week.

Pyrrho · Post by **Pyrrho** » Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:06 pm

FDA page for the October 26 VRBPAC meeting to discuss Pfizer vaccination of children ages 5-11.

https://www.fda.gov/advisory-committees ... nouncement

Direct link to the FDA's briefing document (PDF). Contains efficacy and safety data. Tables and graphs, etc.

https://www.fda.gov/media/153409/download

Yes, there are data showing the rate of adverse events, and I completely understand why there would be concern even if those rates are small. Someone is going to have an adverse event and nobody wants that.

Hammerhead · Post by **Hammerhead** » Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:17 am

Doctor X wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:49 am Tell Strokin' Joe, he and Ginger Goebbels and Whatever Failure is running the CDC are arguing that the vaccinated are still a danger.

– J.D.

You have to stop looking at the problem in simplistic yes/no terms. The whole management of the pandemic is about probablity. One reason we get vaccinated to reduce the odds of spreading the disease.

The politicisation of the the pandemic has been destructive in America. A country like Portugal can get over 90% of the population vaccinated, have much better stats in terms of death and infection rates, and not tear itself apart in the process.

Anaxagoras · Post by **Anaxagoras** » Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:39 am

Video about the situation in the UK, from the ZOE project. They do a weekly video.

Currently, about 25% of the cases are in those who have had (at least) 2 doses of the vaccine. Deaths averaging 223/day (no breakdown of how many of those were fully vaccinated).

Some data about breakthrough infections among those who were previously infected but not vaccinated: their protection is around 65% (around 16 minutes into the video), which is actually lower than that for both of the vaccines used there (UK is mainly AZ and Pfizer), but the immunity does seem to fade over time whether it's from previous infection or from vaccination. Nothing magical about "natural immunity". However, a previous infection plus vaccination does increase the protection to 90% for AZ and 94% for Pfizer. So, it would indicate that there is a significant benefit to vaccination even for those who were previously infected.

The bad news is that the virus keeps evolving into more and more contagious variants. They are still within the main category of Delta, but there are new sub-variants within Delta.

robinson · Post by **robinson** » Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:39 am

If a "vaccine" doesn't stop infection, or stop the spread of a virus, it will cause a much bigger problem. If the infection is non symptomatic it will be even worse.

Hammerhead · Post by **Hammerhead** » Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:41 am

robinson wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:39 am If a "vaccine" doesn't stop infection, or stop the spread of a virus, it will cause a much bigger problem. If the infection is non symptomatic it will be even worse.

It significanty reduces the risk of infection. The flu is with us still and each year new vaccines are created to deal with new variants. Until now, no one thought that was a problem.

Pyrrho · Post by **Pyrrho** » Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:56 pm

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... urges.html

What Previous Covid-19 Waves Tell Us About the Virus Now

Pyrrho · Post by **Pyrrho** » Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:59 pm

https://twitter.com/MonicaGandhi9/statu ... 4864556033

Pyrrho · Post by **Pyrrho** » Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:18 pm

Stefan Baral
@sdbaral
I don't know who needs to hear this, but pharma press releases are like direct to consumer marketing but without that super fast (and mostly unintelligible) voice at the end of the commercial with all of the specifics.

Yup. Why FDA review and advisory committees are of such importance.