We are the Borg.
Rob Lister
Posts: 23535
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed

DrMatt wrote:But... Bitcoins are backed by "virtually mined" partial solutions to a puzzle! They must be very valuable!
I don't know if they must be very valuable or for what reason, but they are currently valued by users at around $14 per. http://www.dumpyourphoto.com/files3/67769/zGfu9djsv.jpg DrMatt BANNED Posts: 29811 Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:00 pm Location: Location: Location! ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? Proof-of-work puzzle solutions can be used for dental fillings, as electrical conductors, as thermal conductors, as anti-corrosion coating, and as reflectors of light and infrared. They're very valuable. :Scratch4: Rob Lister Posts: 23535 Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm Title: Incipient toppler Location: Swimming in Lake Ed ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? DrMatt wrote:Paper money can be used for dental fillings, as electrical conductors, as thermal conductors, as anti-corrosion coating, and as reflectors of light and infrared. They're very valuable. :Scratch4: fify EvilYeti Posts: 9222 Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:55 am Location: San Diego ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? DrMatt wrote:But... Bitcoins are backed by "virtually mined" partial solutions to a puzzle! They must be very valuable! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarcity_value They are also backed by Libertarian nerds with big egos. Do not underestimate that. En folkefiende Posts: 17511 Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:38 am Location: Waiting for an electrician ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? EvilYeti wrote: DrMatt wrote:But... Bitcoins are backed by "virtually mined" partial solutions to a puzzle! They must be very valuable! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarcity_value They are also backed by Libertarian nerds with big egos. Do not underestimate that. Heh. I wonder how the tragedy of the commons will bite them. EvilYeti Posts: 9222 Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:55 am Location: San Diego ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? jj wrote: Heh. I wonder how the tragedy of the commons will bite them. Uh, remember computer science is magic. You can design decentralized systems without a "commons" and currency that literally cannot be counterfeited. Free markets and open source have already produced best-of-class software. No reason they can't produce a superior fiat currency, either. The only reason US paper currency has any value at all is the government will stick your ass in jail if you counterfeit it. Mentat Posts: 10271 Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:00 pm Location: Hangar 18 ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? EvilYeti wrote: jj wrote: Heh. I wonder how the tragedy of the commons will bite them. Uh, remember computer science is magic. You can design decentralized systems without a "commons" and currency that literally cannot be counterfeited. Free markets and open source have already produced best-of-class software. Except for a good cross platform gui environment. X windows could have grown up, graduated college, study all the modern systems, and written a new open source windowing system that isn't pushing three decades of being outdated if it were sentient. >_> EvilYeti Posts: 9222 Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:55 am Location: San Diego ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? Mentat wrote: Except for a good cross platform gui environment. X windows could have grown up, graduated college, study all the modern systems, and written a new open source windowing system that isn't pushing three decades of being outdated if it were sentient. >_> It's called HTML5. Get with the program, bub. Mentat Posts: 10271 Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:00 pm Location: Hangar 18 ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? EvilYeti wrote: Mentat wrote: Except for a good cross platform gui environment. X windows could have grown up, graduated college, study all the modern systems, and written a new open source windowing system that isn't pushing three decades of being outdated if it were sentient. >_> It's called HTML5. Get with the program, bub. HTML 5 is like the String theory: it sounds great 'n all, but why are their umpteen conflicting versions that have different assumptions over the number of spatial dimensions of the universe? EvilYeti Posts: 9222 Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:55 am Location: San Diego ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? Mentat wrote: HTML 5 is like the String theory: it sounds great 'n all, but why are their umpteen conflicting versions that have different assumptions over the number of spatial dimensions of the universe? Whichever one firefox uses wins. Rob Lister Posts: 23535 Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm Title: Incipient toppler Location: Swimming in Lake Ed ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? When I started this thread in May, 2011 it was 30usd/btc/ Currently trading at 2700usd/btc EvilYeti Posts: 9222 Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:55 am Location: San Diego ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? I was going to buy$1,000 in bitcoin and setup a trading bot (that I wrote in python). Then Mt. Gox got "hacked" and I shelved the product, figuring that the market wasn't sustainable.

Guess I was wrong. And would have around 90k in bitcoins assuming I at least retained my initial investment. Assuming my bot worked I would have 10X that. Oh well :/.
Rob Lister
Posts: 23535
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed

(Newser) – Jamie Dimon says he would fire any employee caught trading bitcoin "in a second," the Guardian reports. "It’s against our rules, and they’re stupid. And both are dangerous," the head of JPMorgan Chase said at a conference Tuesday. According to Reuters, bitcoin dropped 10% on Wednesday in the wake of Dimon's tirade against the cryptocurrency, which he called a "fraud.""It's just not a real thing," CNBC quotes Dimon as saying. "You can’t have a business where people can invent a currency out of thin air and think that people who are buying it are really smart," he added.

Dimon did admit there's a "limited market" for bitcoin: drug dealers, murderers, and countries like North Korea. Regardless, he said the digital currency "will eventually blow up" and people who invested in it will lose big. It's a harsh prediction considering Dimon's own daughter bought bitcoin. "She thinks she's a genius now," he said. Bitcoin had increased more than 300% this year and hit an all-time high of just under $5,000 to start the month. However, one expert in investment strategy tells Reuters that Dimon's comments Tuesday "could have been the tipping point" for bitcoin, which was already struggling after China banned the issuance of new digital coins for fundraising last week. LO fucking L I guess he's going to short it then? http://www.newser.com/story/248586/jpmo ... tupid.html Witness Posts: 35689 Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? Business Insider wrote:Bitcoin's insane value makes it an attractive hacking target for cash-strapped North Korea North Korea, facing a wide range of UN sanctions on exports and trade, has turned to another asset class to try to keep the money flowing: cryptocurrencies. According to a report by the security researcher FireEye, North Korean hackers have shown increasing interest in carrying out bitcoin attacks. Cryptocurrency attacks linked to North Korea started in 2016, and they "marked a departure from previously observed activity of North Korean actors employing cyber espionage for traditional nation state activities," FireEye said. In other words, North Korea's hackers had swapped their usual cyberspying for theft. Specifically, the hackers began targeting South Korean cryptocurrency exchanges. Since May this year, FireEye wrote, there have been three attacks alone, one of which has been successful. FireEye didn't name the exchange. The hackers also compromised an English-language bitcoin news website in 2016, though again FireEye didn't say which. And in April, hackers compromised four cryptocurrency wallets on Yapizon, a South Korean exchange, though FireEye said there wasn't a clear link to North Korea. http://uk.businessinsider.com/north-kor ... cks-2017-9 Grammatron Posts: 36577 Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am Location: Los Angeles, CA ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? Abdul Alhazred wrote: ... invent a currency out of thin air and think that people who are buying it are really smart ... Governments do that all the time. I think Lister is right. The guy is about to short a lot of Bitcoin. I've looked into it and it's insanely expensive to short Bitcoin. Anaxagoras Posts: 29496 Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? Bitcoin Surges Past$7,000 to Extend Record Rally :notsure:

Man, if only we had been true believers and not skeptics when this thing started. We could have all been millionaires. :De_Bunk:

When Rob started this thread, what was it, a few pennies? About $10 or something like that? Even if you bought at the beginning of this year you could have made a 700% profit. I still think it will all end in tears eventually, but I guess I could be wrong. Still not going to risk my money though. Anyone can start a new "cryptocurrency" and indeed there are many others. Why is a bitcoin inherently more valuable than the others? Because it was first? Anaxagoras Posts: 29496 Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? Cryptoshuffler Proves Bitcoin Owners Susceptible to Malware, Steals$150,000
The modus operandi of CryptoShuffler is very simple - It strikes when a user copies a Bitcoin address onto the clipboard, presumably to paste it in the destination address of his wallet and send across Bitcoins. Cryptoshuffler then replaces the address in the clipboard with an address owned by the malware creator. Unless a user notices that the address he has pasted is different, the funds will be transferred to the malware creator. Given Bitcoin transactions' irrevocable nature, the user has no way to retrieve his Bitcoins once the transaction is confirmed.
Anaxagoras
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Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan

10,000 and climbing

http://preev.com
Rob Lister
Posts: 23535
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed

$16,000. Irrationally. Why irrationally? Because trading volume is tiny. There is practically no trading compared with a year ago. https://data.bitcoinity.org/markets/volume/2y?c=e&t=b So those with coin are just not letting go. https://i.imgur.com/rMJ6YAa.png Sources say it is because there is much speculation that Wall Street is about to get in on the game. The Verge reports that a crash is imminent and so ... Some traders figure we’re getting close, and are preparing to short Bitcoin But doesn't say how that short takes place; I know of no mechanism to short bitcoin. Well, other than selling it. Mentat Posts: 10271 Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:00 pm Location: Hangar 18 ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? That volume data doesn't look right; cutting off at the start of 2017? In USDT, cryptocurrency trading volume has been going up. RCC: Act II Posts: 904 Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 am ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? Mentat wrote:That volume data doesn't look right; cutting off at the start of 2017? In USDT, cryptocurrency trading volume has been going up. My guess is that it has to do with people giving up on the idea of using bitcoin as a medium of exchange for now, which is usually the fate of deflating currencies. Other cryptos are probably driving the volume bus. There are a lot of iffy things going on in that sector... Rob Lister Posts: 23535 Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm Title: Incipient toppler Location: Swimming in Lake Ed ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? Mentat wrote:That volume data doesn't look right; cutting off at the start of 2017? In USDT, cryptocurrency trading volume has been going up. Yea, it's a bug in their charting. Other sites confirm volume is up. Mentat Posts: 10271 Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:00 pm Location: Hangar 18 ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? Ah, figured it out. It's CNY throwing the charts off. Try: https://data.bitcoinity.org/markets/vol ... SD?c=e&t=b ETA: in usdt: https://data.bitcoinity.org/markets/vol ... =b&vu=curr Anaxagoras Posts: 29496 Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? I am still skeptical of bitcoin. This seems like a greed-based bubble or something. I will admit that so far my skepticism has not been proven right and maybe I just don't get it. Anyway, I see it as gambling on something I don't understand, and since I didn't get in early when you could buy bitcoins for a couple bucks and laugh it off as the price of a couple coffees at Starbucks if it turned out to be nothing, I don't think it's really a gamble worth taking at this point. Maybe another cryptocurrency that's still cheap? Why bitcoin though? Just because it was the first one? Why does that make it more valuable than other copycat cryptocurrencies? It is valuable because people think it is valuable. But what if people stop thinking it's valuable? I guess you could say the same thing about dollars or gold or diamonds too. But those have a longer track record and the price doesn't double in a month. Mentat Posts: 10271 Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:00 pm Location: Hangar 18 ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? I got into bitcoin because creating trading bots is quite fun. But the community really needs to shed its shittier members. Now, keep in mind that we live in liberal democracies with stable currencies. Most of the benefits aren't for us, and bitcoin is crappy compared to the likes of the dollar or euro. That, and our governments are comparatively lazy faire when it comes to any kind of business transaction compared to a more totalitarian state. Bitcoin has value for people with access to technology but live in places with high corruption, excessive regulation, bad banking systems, extreme inflation, etc. To somebody not in that situation it seems like a gold rush, because that is what it effectively the major distinguishing feature in a developed world. Witness Posts: 35689 Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? https://s9.postimg.org/oykmy9hbj/121817 ... _Cagle.jpg Anaxagoras Posts: 29496 Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? Tulips might be a better analogy than the gold rush. gnome Posts: 25931 Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am Location: New Port Richey, FL ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? Maybe not. Conveniently relevant Smithsonian.com article Anaxagoras Posts: 29496 Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rom-record Weird little tidbit in this article: Long Island Iced Tea Corp. shares rose as much as 289 percent after the unprofitable Hicksville, New York-based company rebranded itself Long Blockchain Corp. So I went looking for more: Iced Tea Company Changes Name to “Long Blockchain,” Stock Immediately Skyrockets Since 2011, Long Island Iced Tea Corp., a little-known company based in Hicksville, New York, was best known for hawking ready-made iced teas and similar refreshing beverages. But that all changed on Tuesday morning, when the company announced in a press release that it would rebrand as a blockchain-technology company. Long Island Iced Tea Corp. would be no more, the company said. Instead, it would be “shifting its primary corporate focus towards the exploration of and investment in opportunities that leverage the benefits of blockchain technology.” As such, its name would change from Long Island Iced Tea Corp. to the much more crypto-friendly Long Blockchain Corp.; it even had the foresight to reserve the Web site domain www.longblockchain.com. Yes, the iced-tea company had formally pivoted to blockchain. The effect on the company’s stock price was almost instantaneous. Shares spiked as much as 500 percent in premarket trading, eventually settling at a 275-percent gain, never mind that the company plans to maintain its focus on ready-made, grab-and-go drinks, and thus far has little to show for its supposed aspirations to expand into blockchain technology. Regardless of its intentions, the company is not alone in cashing in on the euphoric wave surrounding bitcoin mania. Incredibly, another small beverage company, SkyPeople Fruit Juice, renamed itself Future FinTech over the summer, and this week saw its stock pop 200 percent. And a fintech company called Longfin, which started trading on the NASDAQ last week at a modest$5 per share, saw its value spike to \$7 billion last week after it announced it had bought Ziddu.com, “a blockchain-empowered global micro-lending solutions provider” that only transacts in cryptocurrency.
Witness
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Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm

https://s9.postimg.org/4dljalqrj/Bitcoin_Linear.png

And log:

https://s9.postimg.org/le4fjbe3j/Bitcoin_Log.png
Rob Lister
Posts: 23535
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed

Really crazy.

Lost half from the high of 20K in a week.

I'm still looking for that bitcoin on a thumbdrive that I got for free.

It must be here somewhere.

My wife could find it.
Mentat
Posts: 10271
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Location: Hangar 18

It's not a crash, it's a discount liquidation! All inventory must go! Good credit, bad credit, no credit? Doesn't matter!

Wait, I thought we were talking about used cars.
Rob Lister
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
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that sounds right, Abdul. I note it is back to 15k
Anaxagoras
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Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan

Rob Lister wrote:that sounds right, Abdul. I note it is back to 15k
Scrolling back, I note that it passed 7000 on around about Nov. 2, and 10,000 around Nov. 29th, so basically I think it's too early to call it a crash.
Pyrrho
Posts: 31674
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Title: Man in Black
Location: Division 6

https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2017/12 ... um-heater/

We used a cryptocurrency miner as a heater this winter and it really worked
As far as the rest of the innards go, the Comino N1 (the model we had a chance to test) boasts eight ASUS P106-100 6G graphic cards mounted on an ASUS PRIME Z270-A Motherboard, as well as 3 NOCTUA NF-A14 PPC-2000 PWM fans, a customized Black Ice NEMESIS GTX420 radiator and 2 Chieftech PROTON BDF-750C 750W power supply units.

All of this oomph amounts to about 1kW of power consumption per hour. Make sure to check your local electricity rates to get an idea of how much that will add up to your energy bills.

The contraption stands 63.5cm tall, with a length of 45.9cm and a width of17.5cm, which means you could easily fit it in an idle corner of your room and forget about it, while it does the mining for you. And this is precisely what we did.
Rob Lister
Posts: 23535
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed

Pyrrho wrote:https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2017/12 ... um-heater/

We used a cryptocurrency miner as a heater this winter and it really worked
As far as the rest of the innards go, the Comino N1 (the model we had a chance to test) boasts eight ASUS P106-100 6G graphic cards mounted on an ASUS PRIME Z270-A Motherboard, as well as 3 NOCTUA NF-A14 PPC-2000 PWM fans, a customized Black Ice NEMESIS GTX420 radiator and 2 Chieftech PROTON BDF-750C 750W power supply units.

All of this oomph amounts to about 1kW of power consumption per hour. Make sure to check your local electricity rates to get an idea of how much that will add up to your energy bills.

The contraption stands 63.5cm tall, with a length of 45.9cm and a width of17.5cm, which means you could easily fit it in an idle corner of your room and forget about it, while it does the mining for you. And this is precisely what we did.
I will ask without reading the article, what was their return on the dollar?

Because if you have to heat your house anyway, and you don't access to cheaper alternatives like gas or oil, you might as well run a miner. I can't think of a single disadvantage. An electric heater running at X watts uses the same watts as a miner. The amount lost to uploading/downloading crypto data is too insignificant to bother with. The only downside is the cost of the equipment.

I use NG to heat my home and the cost of that fuel plus the cost of the unit is not trivial; probably more than a decent miner. If there's a decent return on the dollar it might be a worthy investment.
Rob Lister
Posts: 23535
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
An electric heater running at X watts uses the same watts as a miner ...
Electric heater == More heat for the same wattage.

Or more precisely, all of the electrical power is turned to heat.
those two statements are at odds.

Electric heater == same heat for the same wattage. A watt is a watt is a watt. The only loss is the heat of the bits that download the puzzle to be solve. Utterly Insignificant and probably has a net of zero.

Rob Lister
Posts: 23535
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed

Abdul Alhazred wrote:A watt is a watt is a watt.

But what the watt it is turned into might be something other than heat.

Heat is waste. Everything else is "work".

A useful distinction if what you're doing with your electricity is something other than heating.

Where's sparks? Maybe he can explain it to you.
You are wrong. No matter what it does, it is eventually heat. And in this case, all work is local so all heat is local, which is the point. Where they to use those watts to turn a turbine to make power for the neighbors, you'd would have an argument, but only for moving the heat elsewhere. In this case, all heat is local with the exception of the bits moving through the internet. In-fucking-significant.

How do you not know this? Thermodynamics much?
Mentat
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Dammit Abdul, this is one of the very few times Lister is right.

Just think for a second, where is the energy going into the computer? Is it kinetic movement? Outside of spinning disks and fans, no, and in crypto mining rigs the vast lions share of power is going to the CPU/GPUs. Is it light? In a headless setup, no. Is it sound? Technically the fan, but heaters have those too, so that's moot. So what's the last method for power to dissipate?

Miami.
Fucking.
Heats.
Rob Lister
Posts: 23535
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed