## What's killing us this week?

Ever had it before? Well you got it again.
Anaxagoras
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Maybe someone received it as a gift, and didn't like it so they brought it to work as a way to get rid of it? I could imagine myself doing that.
Bruce
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Could be. Hadn't thought of that. Doesn't help. The momentary feel-goodz that someone was thinking of someone else....here, try this, it might make you feel better.....is quickly crushed by the thought that someone still paid $60 for a can of common weeds. I work in a department full of scientist that develop scientific tests for scientifically vetted active pharmaceutical ingredients. If anyone in the world should know better, it should be my co-workers. Imagine someone leaving a copy of one of Sylvia Brown's books on top of the microwave at the James Randi Educational Foundation. So what if it was a gift. It's just......wrong. It's been on the microwave for a week. If it's still there on Monday, I'm chucking it. Or maybe a week from Monday......I don't know. :bang_head: Bruce Posts: 20836 Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:46 pm Title: Bruce of all Bruces Location: Massachusetts ### Re: What's killing us this week? Abdul Alhazred wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:22 pm I don't know about any super health benefits, but I've had dandelion greens as a cooked vegetable and they are not bad. Just blowing those dandelion seed right into my prejudiced eyes, aren'tcha. :roll: Witness Posts: 35689 Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm ### Re: What's killing us this week? Bruce wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:35 am Could be. Hadn't thought of that. Doesn't help. The momentary feel-goodz that someone was thinking of someone else....here, try this, it might make you feel better.....is quickly crushed by the thought that someone still paid$60 for a can of common weeds. I work in a department full of scientist that develop scientific tests for scientifically vetted active pharmaceutical ingredients. If anyone in the world should know better, it should be my co-workers. Imagine someone leaving a copy of one of Sylvia Brown's books on top of the microwave at the James Randi Educational Foundation. So what if it was a gift. It's just......wrong.

It's been on the microwave for a week. If it's still there on Monday, I'm chucking it.

Or maybe a week from Monday......I don't know.

It's good for your fat liver and lazy cancer cells. Now shut up and finish your cup! :x

https://i.imgur.com/8B6hI9G.jpg
Pyrrho
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Black salve:

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real- ... 1b42360470
Mr Barry, like many who use black salve, believes mainstream doctors and scientists are not acting in the best interests of patients. Rather, they are prescribing expensive medical treatments purely for their own benefit, part of a “money making machine” profiting off the public “in the name of science”, he said.

This opinion is widely held among black salve fans. They claim the cheap ointment at 50 a tub has the potential to destroy the billion dollar “cancer industry” run by traditional health care providers. They don’t care about the warnings from doctors. They believe most health professionals only criticise black salve because they are frightened the illegal treatment is a threat to the medical industry’s profits. But the list of people who have died or been severely maimed after using black salve is alarming. Photos at the link may be NSFW Doctor X Posts: 79446 Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm Title: Collective Messiah Location: Your Mom ### Re: What's killing us this week? From the article: Mr Barry’s leg was amputated after years of applying black salve. He has used it on hundreds of melanomas, rejecting advice from doctors to undergo chemotherapy and radiation. he is extremely lucky it so far has not widely metastasized as malignant melanoma will if you poke it and piss it off. By nature of its origin from neural crest, melanoma can, and will, go anywhere. "No cure for fools!" --J.D. Doctor X Posts: 79446 Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm Title: Collective Messiah Location: Your Mom ### Re: What's killing us this week? I post this . . . for a friend: Consumers warned to avoid Rhino male enhancement products The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is warning consumers not to purchase or use Rhino male enhancement products and has identified more than 25 products marketed with variations of the name "Rhino" that contained hidden drug ingredient(s). These products continue to be sold at gas stations, convenience stores, on eBay, and on Amazon. The FDA has received reports of people experiencing chest pain, severe headaches and prolonged erections after taking a Rhino product that led to surgical intervention and hospitalization due to extreme drops in blood pressure. [FDA warns consumers to avoid Rhino male enhancement products found at retailers because of undeclared and potentially dangerous drug ingredients. FDA News Release. Nov 27, 2018. In October, Nam Hyun Lee, 60, was arrested without incident at his residence in Fullerton, California after being named in a 12-count federal indictment that accuses him of illegally selling Rhino and several other products that contained the erectile dysfunction drugs Cialis (tadalafil) or Viagra (sildenafil) that he falsely marketed as herbal supplements for men. Lee, also known as "Daniel Lee," is a South Korean national believed to be illegally residing in the United States. BUILD THE WALL! BUILD THE WALL! LOCK HERTURN UP! The indictment charges him with conspiracy, three counts of smuggling misbranded drugs into the United States, and eight counts of introducing misbranded drugs into interstate commerce. The indictment also seeks the forfeiture of funds contained in several bank accounts, an as-yet undetermined amount of cash seized during the execution of search warrants, and a1.2 million residence in Fullerton that prosecutors allege was purchased with proceeds from the illegal activity. If convicted, Lee could be sentenced to more than 20 years in prison.. [Fullerton man arrested on federal charges alleging illegal importation and sale of male sexual enhancement drugs. U.S. Department of Justice Press Release. Oct 31, 2018]

QuackWatch
--J.D.
Anaxagoras
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

And poachers are still killing endangered rhinoceroseses(es?) for their horns.
Witness
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Pangolins are all the rage right now. For their meat, and:
Wikipedia wrote:Though pangolins are protected by an international ban on their trade, populations have suffered from illegal trafficking due to unfounded beliefs in East Asia that their ground-up scales can stimulate lactation or cure cancer or asthma.
And older uses:

https://i.imgur.com/bZJUzwL.jpg
A coat of armor made of gilded pangolin scales from India, an unusual object, was presented to George III in 1820
Anaxagoras
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Can baby powder cause cancer?

One jury says yes:

J&J loses its battle to overturn a $4.7B baby powder verdict$4.7 billion with a "b". That's a lot of baby powder. 22 plaintiffs so each of them should end up with hundreds of millions of dollars.
Bruce
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Abdul Alhazred wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:44 am Hard to believe "male enhancement" quackery still exists in the age of Viagra.
What if I told you that the key reagent in the synthesis of viagra is found in rhinoceros horns?
Bruce
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Anaxagoras wrote: Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:12 am Can baby powder cause cancer?

One jury says yes:

J&J loses its battle to overturn a $4.7B baby powder verdict$4.7 billion with a "b". That's a lot of baby powder. 22 plaintiffs so each of them should end up with hundreds of millions of dollars.
The asbestos mineral is often found near talc, so it wouldn't be surprising to find asbestos fibers in baby powder. Wouldn't be such a big problem if they didn't grind the powder so fine that it becomes airborne at the slightest squeeze of the bottle.

I never really understood the use for the stuff. Babies don't need to be dry, and baby powder is a terrible drying agent anyway. Plus it makes everything smell like baby. Pew!
Anaxagoras
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Bruce wrote: Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:17 am The asbestos mineral is often found near talc, so it wouldn't be surprising to find asbestos fibers in baby powder. Wouldn't be such a big problem if they didn't grind the powder so fine that it becomes airborne at the slightest squeeze of the bottle.

I never really understood the use for the stuff. Babies don't need to be dry, and baby powder is a terrible drying agent anyway. Plus it makes everything smell like baby. Pew!
I don't recall using baby powder when my own kids were babies.
I changed some diapers too, being the modern, progressive sort of father that I am.
But you're right: baby powder wasn't necessary and I can't remember ever using it.

Found that Reuters report they mentioned. I guess this verdict sets a bad precedent for the company because there's probably a lot more lawsuits to come now.

Johnson & Johnson knew for decades that asbestos lurked in its Baby Powder "A REUTERS INVESTIGATION"
Facing thousands of lawsuits alleging that its talc caused cancer, J&J insists on the safety and purity of its iconic product. But internal documents examined by Reuters show that the company's powder was sometimes tainted with carcinogenic asbestos and that J&J kept that information from regulators and the public.

By LISA GIRION in Los Angeles

Filed Dec. 14, 2018, 2 p.m. GMT

Darlene Coker knew she was dying. She just wanted to know why.

She knew that her cancer, mesothelioma, arose in the delicate membrane surrounding her lungs and other organs. She knew it was as rare as it was deadly, a signature of exposure to asbestos. And she knew it afflicted mostly men who inhaled asbestos dust in mines and industries such as shipbuilding that used the carcinogen before its risks were understood.

Coker, 52 years old, had raised two daughters and was running a massage school in Lumberton, a small town in eastern Texas. How had she been exposed to asbestos? “She wanted answers,” her daughter Cady Evans said.

Fighting for every breath and in crippling pain, Coker hired Herschel Hobson, a personal-injury lawyer. He homed in on a suspect: the Johnson’s Baby Powder that Coker had used on her infant children and sprinkled on herself all her life. Hobson knew that talc and asbestos often occurred together in the earth, and that mined talc could be contaminated with the carcinogen. Coker sued Johnson & Johnson, alleging that “poisonous talc” in the company’s beloved product was her killer.
. . .
shemp
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

When they make baby powder, do they dehydrate the baby before or after grinding it?
Bruce
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Asbestos isn't "poisonous". It's just silica. Same stuff that sand is made of. Asbestos crystals just happen to be just the right size to fit inside our lung sacks and never leave. Once there, the microscopic needles pierce the lungs tissue over and over, forcing cells to divide and scar tissue to build. Eventually, cancer emerges from the runway cell division.

As long as asbestos isn't in your lungs, it's harmless. Very useful in fact. Just wish we would get over the misinformation and just find safer ways to use it rather than banning it completely. Same goes for many other substances.
Anaxagoras
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

What's not killing us this week?

Coffee, alcohol and being overweight.

I love how the headline writers summarize this study.

Alcohol, coffee could be key to living longer, UC Irvine study finds
IRVINE, Calif. (KABC) -- People who drink moderate amounts of alcohol or coffee and are overweight in their 70s live longer lives, according to researchers at the UC Irvine Institute for Memory Impairments and Neurological Disorders.

The researchers started a study in 2003 to look at what makes people live past 90.

They said participants in the study who drank moderate amounts of alcohol or coffee lived longer than those who abstained from the drinks.

In addition, people who were overweight in their 70s lived longer than people who were normal or underweight in their 70s.

On the other hand I've read that Mormons, who abstain from alcohol and even caffeine, live longer, so go figure.
Doctor X
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Yes, those who make it to 70 tend to die of other things than a heart attack.

Oye.

--J.D.
shemp
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Indeed, as you get older your chances of dying from a bar stool fall increase.
Witness
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

How US children and teens die: Study reveals the widespread and persistent role of firearms

The No. 2 cause of death hasn't changed much in 17 years, while prevention efforts cut the death rate from No. 1 cause -- motor vehicle accidents -- in half

Summary:
America lost 20,360 children and teens in 2016 -- 60 percent of them to preventable injuries, a new study shows. But while death rates from the top cause -- motor vehicle crashes -- have declined steadily since 1999, rates from the second-leading cause -- firearms -- have gone up. It's the first time all causes of child and adolescent death have been tallied by both mechanism and intent.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 191100.htm
xouper
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Witness wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:17 am
How US children and teens die: Study reveals the widespread and persistent role of firearms

The No. 2 cause of death hasn't changed much in 17 years, while prevention efforts cut the death rate from No. 1 cause -- motor vehicle accidents -- in half

Summary:
America lost 20,360 children and teens in 2016 -- 60 percent of them to preventable injuries, a new study shows. But while death rates from the top cause -- motor vehicle crashes -- have declined steadily since 1999, rates from the second-leading cause -- firearms -- have gone up. It's the first time all causes of child and adolescent death have been tallied by both mechanism and intent.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 191100.htm
At the end of the paper they say it is their “lane” to do something about gun deaths.

But they never say what that might mean.

What medical solution is there to the so-called gun problem, most of which are homicides?

On a related note, the leading cause of death of children under four is drowning. Shall we outlaw swimming pools and bathtubs?
Witness
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

From 2017:
How Canadian researchers reconstituted an extinct poxvirus for $100,000 using mail-order DNA Eradicating smallpox, one of the deadliest diseases in history, took humanity decades and cost billions of dollars. Bringing the scourge back would probably take a small scientific team with little specialized knowledge half a year and cost about$100,000.

That’s one conclusion from an unusual and as-yet unpublished experiment performed last year by Canadian researchers. A group led by virologist David Evans of the University of Alberta in Edmonton, Canada, says it has synthesized the horsepox virus, a relative of smallpox, from genetic pieces ordered in the mail. Horsepox is not known to harm humans—and like smallpox, researchers believe it no longer exists in nature; nor is it seen as a major agricultural threat. But the technique Evans used could be used to recreate smallpox, a horrific disease that was declared eradicated in 1980. "No question. If it’s possible with horsepox, it’s possible with smallpox,” says virologist Gerd Sutter of Ludwig Maximilians University in Munich, Germany.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/07 ... -order-dna
sparks
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Idiots.
Witness
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Widespread vitamin B deficiencies in the foodchains. Long article, no firm conclusion.
Deadly deficiency at the heart of an environmental mystery

[very big snip]

A Sea of Possibilities

Even as researchers agree to disagree about some specific examples of wildlife in distress, Balk and others are investigating what might be the root cause of such a widespread environmental thiamine deficiency.

Balk fears that a single pervasive factor, such as an atmospheric pollutant, may be depleting the environment of thiamine at its sources, including phytoplankton and bacteria, affecting the entire food chain. To see how far the problem reaches, he is now looking at upstream terrestrial wildlife such as elk (Alces alces). Balk is also investigating whether any of several pollutants might interfere with the oxidation, hydrolysis, or synthesis of thiamine.

Tillitt, too, is casting a wider net, searching for thiamine deficiencies in water birds in the Great Lakes and moose in Minnesota. Although he is confident that alewives were the cause of fish declines in the lakes, he’s not certain what might be driving cases of thiamine deficiency seen in species elsewhere. “If there is a chemical that somehow affects thiamine, that could be extremely dangerous,” he says. “It is very important for us to understand more about it.”

But researchers need not invoke a pollutant to explain thiamine deficits, says Sergio Sañudo-Wilhelmy, an environmental biogeochemist at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles. Imbalances in phytoplankton and bacteria, both of which are primary producers of thiamine and other B vitamins, could account for the problem.

Sañudo-Wilhelmy has measured very low levels of B vitamins, including thiamine, in coastal waters around California. Other researchers have estimated similar scarcities in some areas of the open ocean. Warming waters due to climate change could explain the seawater vitamin scarcity, he says. Warmer temperatures speed bacterial growth, making the microbes consume more B vitamins than they produce—gobbling up the vitamins before the phytoplankton can take their share.
https://www.pnas.org/content/115/42/10532
Pyrrho
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

This has been a great week for people at work who sneeze and cough without covering their noses or mouths.

Glad I got that flu shot.
Witness
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Gut Bacteria Linked to Depression Identified

The first population-level study on the link between gut bacteria and mental health identifies specific gut bacteria linked to depression and provides evidence that a wide range of gut bacteria can produce neuroactive compounds. Jeroen Raes (VIB-KU Leuven) and his team published these results today in the scientific journal Nature Microbiology.

In their manuscript entitled ‘The neuroactive potential of the human gut microbiota in quality of life and depression’ Jeroen Raes and his team studied the relation between gut bacteria and quality of life and depression. The authors combined faecal microbiome data with general practitioner diagnoses of depression from 1,054 individuals enrolled in the Flemish Gut Flora Project. They identified specific groups of microorganisms that positively or negatively correlated with mental health. The authors found that two bacterial genera, Coprococcus and Dialister, were consistently depleted in individuals with depression, regardless of antidepressant treatment. The results were validated in an independent cohort of 1,063 individuals from the Dutch LifeLinesDEEP cohort and in a cohort of clinically depressed patients at the University Hospitals Leuven, Belgium.
https://neurosciencenews.com/depression ... ria-10685/
Pyrrho
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

This fuggin' guy
Witness
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Experts warn of deadly disease infecting deer across US

An infectious disease that can kill deer has been found in 24 states, adding to experts' fear that the disease could spread to humans.

Chronic wasting disease (CWD) has been found in wild deer, elk and moose in 24 states and two Canadian provinces by the Center for Disease Control (CDC) as of January, according to USA Today.

"It is probable that human cases of chronic wasting disease associated with consumption with contaminated meat will be documented in the years ahead," Michael Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota, said at a hearing before Minnesota lawmakers. "It’s possible the number of human cases will be substantial and will not be isolated events."

The CDC has not reported any cases of the disease being found in humans. The center warns the disease could be spread to humans by eating infected deer meet.

The disease affects deers' brains and spinal cords, leading it to be dubbed the “zombie” deer disease.
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing ... -across-us
Pyrrho
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0nxR5aWkAEGUIw.jpg
Witness
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Chemical pollutants in the home degrade fertility in both men and dogs, study finds

New research by scientists at the University of Nottingham suggests that environmental contaminants found in the home and diet have the same adverse effects on male fertility in both humans and in domestic dogs.

There has been increasing concern over declining human male fertility in recent decades with studies showing a 50% global reduction in sperm quality in the past 80 years. A previous study by the Nottingham experts showed that sperm quality in domestic dogs has also sharply declined, raising the question of whether modern day chemicals in the home environment could be at least partly to blame.

In a new paper published in Scientific Reports, the Nottingham team set out to test the effects of two specific man-made chemicals namely the common plasticizer DEHP, widely abundant in the home (e.g. carpets, flooring, upholstery, clothes, wires, toys) and the persistent industrial chemical polychlorinated biphenyl 153, which although banned globally, remains widely detectable in the environment including food.

The researchers carried out identical experiments in both species using samples of sperm from donor men and stud dogs living in the same region of the UK. The results show that the chemicals, at concentrations relevant to environmental exposure, have the same damaging effect on sperm from both man and dog.

Leading the work, Associate Professor and Reader in Reproductive Biology at the School of Veterinary Medicine and Science, Richard Lea, said: "This new study supports our theory that the domestic dog is indeed a 'sentinel' or mirror for human male reproductive decline and our findings suggest that man-made chemicals that have been widely used in the home and working environment may be responsible for the fall in sperm quality reported in both man and dog that share the same environment."
shemp
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

I guess this means I can safely fuck the bitch.
Bruce
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Dad opted to start chemo treatments for his stage 4 pancreatic cancer this week, even though it's only expected to extend his 3 to 6 month life expectancy by a few months. He's 67, 340lbs, and drinks about a case of Pepsi a month. Prior to the cancer diagnosis, he's never had any health problems in his life.

I was there when he met the cancer doc that will be monitoring him during the chemo treatments. He asked dad about his appetite and if he had lost any weight. No trouble there. Then the doc said, "Well, I don't want you losing any weight, and I want you to eat as much as you can."

I haven't seen my dad smile like that in years. He's been waiting for years to find a doctor who would tell him that. The only way it could have been better is if he had said, "And I want you to bathe in Pepsi every night, sleep on a pillow of hamburgers and, wrap yourself in a warm blanket made of bacon. There are no more rules. Live it up while you can."
Doctor X
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Positive thoughts.

--J.D.
Witness
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Air Pollution Is Killing Millions More People Than We Thought

Air pollution could be killing 8.8 million people worldwide each year—almost double the figure previously thought, that's according to the authors of a study, who said heir findings highlighted the “urgent and important” need to tackle the issue.

Deaths caused by air pollution appear to have overtaken those caused by smoking, according to a study published in the European Heart Journal. In 2015, air pollution was thought to be responsible for 8.79 million deaths, compared with the 7.2 million caused by tobacco smoking, the study—which focused on Europe—found.

An additional 790,000 deaths in Europe were likely caused by air pollution, with between 40 to 80 percent of those associated with cardiovascular disease, according to the study. Fine particulate matter could be shaving 2.2 years off the life of the average European, likely due to a combination of densely populated areas and poor air quality, the authors of the study warned.
https://www.newsweek.com/air-pollution- ... le-1358195
Pyrrho
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

sparks
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Bruce wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:47 am Dad opted to start chemo treatments for his stage 4 pancreatic cancer this week, even though it's only expected to extend his 3 to 6 month life expectancy by a few months. He's 67, 340lbs, and drinks about a case of Pepsi a month. Prior to the cancer diagnosis, he's never had any health problems in his life.

I was there when he met the cancer doc that will be monitoring him during the chemo treatments. He asked dad about his appetite and if he had lost any weight. No trouble there. Then the doc said, "Well, I don't want you losing any weight, and I want you to eat as much as you can."

I haven't seen my dad smile like that in years. He's been waiting for years to find a doctor who would tell him that. The only way it could have been better is if he had said, "And I want you to bathe in Pepsi every night, sleep on a pillow of hamburgers and, wrap yourself in a warm blanket made of bacon. There are no more rules. Live it up while you can."
Sorry Bruce.
Bruce
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Thanks. I think he's on his way to accepting it. We had several talks. Just hope he takes the pain meds when the time comes and doesn't try to tough it out. He says he won't, but I think he still hates pills more than pain. I've been calling frequently, trying to keep his spirits up. He still has his sense of humor.
Anaxagoras
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

Does Roundup cancer? Jury says yes:

A Man Said He Got Cancer After Spraying Monsanto's Weed Killer. A Jury Agreed. (Blame Buzzfeed for the headline)
A federal jury in San Francisco has found that a commonly used weed killer played a significant role in causing a California man's cancer, delivering another blow to the agrochemical giant Monsanto as it fights a similar decision reached last year.

In a verdict announced Tuesday, jurors ruled in favor of Edwin Hardeman, a 70-year-old Sonoma County man, finding that exposure to the herbicide Roundup was "a substantial factor" in the development of his cancer.
(There was a similar verdict last year. But is there any compelling scientific evidence?)
Pyrrho
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### Re: What's killing us this week?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate#Toxicity
Cancer
The consensus among national pesticide regulatory agencies and scientific organizations is that labeled uses of glyphosate have demonstrated no evidence of human carcinogenicity.[92][93] Organizations such as the World Health Organization (WHO) and the Food and Agriculture Organization, European Commission, Canadian Pest Management Regulatory Agency, and the German Federal Institute for Risk Assessment[94] have concluded that there is no evidence that glyphosate poses a carcinogenic or genotoxic risk to humans.[92] The final assessment of the Australian Pesticides and Veterinary Medicines Authority in 2017 was that "glyphosate does not pose a carcinogenic risk to humans".[92][95] The EPA has classified glyphosate as Group E, meaning "evidence of non-carcinogenicity in humans".[92][96] Only one international scientific organization, the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), affiliated with the WHO, has made claims of carcinogenicity in research reviews. The IARC has been criticized for its assessment methodology by failing to consider the broad literature and only assessing hazard rather than risk.[92]

There is weak evidence human cancer risk might increase as a result of occupational exposure to large amounts of glyphosate, such as agricultural work, but no good evidence of such a risk from home use, such as in domestic gardening.[97] When weak statistical associations with cancer have been found, such observations have been attributed to bias and confounding in correlational studies due to workers often being exposed to other known carcinogens;[98] meta-analyses that show an effect between glyphosate use and non-Hodgkin lymphoma have been criticized for not assessing these factors, underlying quality of studies being reviewed, or whether the relationship is causal rather than only correlational.[98]
Pyrrho
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