Trolley problem

Stump your fellow simians.
Pyrrho
Posts: 33083
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:17 am
Title: Man in Black
Location: Division 6

Trolley problem

Post by Pyrrho »

Link: https://twitter.com/aSciEnthusiast/status/1121767925214515201
Last edited by Pyrrho on Sun Mar 13, 2022 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nyarlathotep
Posts: 49739
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Nyarlathotep »

The Trolley Problem has a very clear solution

gnome
Posts: 25992
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

Re: Trolley problem

Post by gnome »

Variations on this one eat at me a bit. In the "switch" version I would direct the train towards the fewer number of people with little hesitation. In the "push" version I would probably not push someone into the way. Though, the result is identical, and I have exactly as much control over the outcome in both cases.

I've really no idea why the distinction is so important to me. For now I just take it as a deconstruction of pure utilitarianism.
gnome
Posts: 25992
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

Re: Trolley problem

Post by gnome »

Oh yes--there's room for a MASSIVE false dichotomy. Outside of theoretical scenarios I'm sure it is difficult to be certain that there are no other options, or that any of the proposed options will work out as expected. I'm sure that's why a train is used--there's an image of inevitability that already puts the brain towards thinking inside the box.
gnome
Posts: 25992
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

Re: Trolley problem

Post by gnome »

Possibly the "prime directive" of any attempt to apply game theory to real-life scenarios is to look for the exploit, or even a cheat. RL has those, possibly more often than games. There are unmodeled factors.
ceptimus
Posts: 1464
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: Trolley problem

Post by ceptimus »

gnome wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 3:51 am I've really no idea why the distinction is so important to me. For now I just take it as a deconstruction of pure utilitarianism.
Throwing the switch, you only commit the minor crime of interfering with the property of the trolley company - and everyone would let you off because you save lives. Pushing the person under the trolley, you commit murder, and even though you still save lives, you're most likely to be subject to a lengthy and stressful trial at the very least.
Rob Lister
Posts: 23535
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Rob Lister »

gnome wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 3:51 am Variations on this one eat at me a bit. In the "switch" version I would direct the train towards the fewer number of people with little hesitation. In the "push" version I would probably not push someone into the way. Though, the result is identical, and I have exactly as much control over the outcome in both cases.

I've really no idea why the distinction is so important to me. For now I just take it as a deconstruction of pure utilitarianism.
You are the epitome of Chidi Anagonye in The Good Place.
gnome
Posts: 25992
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

Re: Trolley problem

Post by gnome »

My wife would probably appreciate it if I had his abs.

But maybe I am a little, only actually capable of making a decision.

So am I the white equivalent of the black guy with no "soul"?



0:38
gnome
Posts: 25992
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

Re: Trolley problem

Post by gnome »

There's that imperative to find a reality-based loophole. Within the purely philosophical construct, that's a cheat though, as much as announcing that you'll put a crash-proof shield on the victims--making assumptions beyond the premise.
Pyrrho
Posts: 33083
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:17 am
Title: Man in Black
Location: Division 6

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Pyrrho »

Link:
gnome
Posts: 25992
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

Re: Trolley problem

Post by gnome »

ceptimus wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:30 am
gnome wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 3:51 am I've really no idea why the distinction is so important to me. For now I just take it as a deconstruction of pure utilitarianism.
Throwing the switch, you only commit the minor crime of interfering with the property of the trolley company - and everyone would let you off because you save lives. Pushing the person under the trolley, you commit murder, and even though you still save lives, you're most likely to be subject to a lengthy and stressful trial at the very least.
And yet, if I were promised immunity from prosecution or other consequences to myself, I would still struggle over the decision. So I don't think that's it.
ceptimus
Posts: 1464
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: Trolley problem

Post by ceptimus »

Maybe the recurring nightmares about the guy you pushed would haunt you - whereas by doing nothing you can look the other way as the carnage ensues, and think, "I had nothing to do with it." Probably best if you get away from the trolley track before the impact occurs - perhaps there is a little coffee shop you can slip into.
Anaxagoras
Posts: 30036
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am
Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Anaxagoras »



This is kinda cool actually.

A psychological study on real live unsuspecting victims placed in the position of playing God.
Pyrrho
Posts: 33083
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:17 am
Title: Man in Black
Location: Division 6

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Pyrrho »

https://i.imgur.com/I7GogBY.jpg
Pyrrho
Posts: 33083
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:17 am
Title: Man in Black
Location: Division 6

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Pyrrho »

https://i.imgur.com/4gXMmS2.jpg
shemp
Posts: 7275
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:16 pm
Title: inbred shit-for-brains
Location: Planet X

Re: Trolley problem

Post by shemp »

Pyrrho
Posts: 33083
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:17 am
Title: Man in Black
Location: Division 6

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Pyrrho »

https://twitter.com/sinsin08051/status/ ... 5862275075
Hotarubi
Posts: 5332
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:12 am
Title: Enchantress
Location: This septic Isle.

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Hotarubi »

Can I have the backgrounds of the people on the tracks?
Ben Trovado
Posts: 1912
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:08 pm
Title: Ex Avenger

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Ben Trovado »

The one on the left is Robert, a 58 year-old accountant estranged from his adult son over his marriage's collapse 17 years back. Recently, he has begun worrying about his alcohol intake and his thinning hair. He has had to take a loan from his IRA to help his older sister, who broke her hip on some stairs and has no kids of her own any more.

One the left:
Marcy, a 37 year-old district manager from Whole Foods, who thinks that someone within the company is stealing from the stock room.

Rinny - a 19 year-old hoping to get into UCLA on a music scholarship. He has 3 younger siblings and works part-time at a local restaurant to help his mother.

Deighton - 40 year-old heir to the famous Digby Staple fortune, is secretly in love with his accountant, the frankly blond Simone.

Doug and Bob - Metropolitan policemen . . . with a difference.
Hotarubi
Posts: 5332
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:12 am
Title: Enchantress
Location: This septic Isle.

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Hotarubi »

Any coldplay fans? It all comes down to that at the end of the day
Doctor X
Posts: 77685
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Doctor X »

Would anyone bother to tie them to train tracks when beating them with baseball/cricket bats is so much more satisfying?

– J.D.
Pyrrho
Posts: 33083
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:17 am
Title: Man in Black
Location: Division 6

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Pyrrho »

They are a BDSM group.
Pyrrho
Posts: 33083
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:17 am
Title: Man in Black
Location: Division 6

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Pyrrho »

Yes I should be asleep.
Ben Trovado
Posts: 1912
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:08 pm
Title: Ex Avenger

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Ben Trovado »

Would a trolley even have the momentum and force to run over multiple people?

Or should we bring a finisher to be sure?
shemp
Posts: 7275
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:16 pm
Title: inbred shit-for-brains
Location: Planet X

Re: Trolley problem

Post by shemp »

A PASSENGER’S ONE-STAR REVIEW OF THE TROLLEY RIDE FROM THE TROLLEY PROBLEM
Ben Trovado
Posts: 1912
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:08 pm
Title: Ex Avenger

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Ben Trovado »

shemp wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:09 am A PASSENGER’S ONE-STAR REVIEW OF THE TROLLEY RIDE FROM THE TROLLEY PROBLEM
Call me old-fashioned, but I don’t think they should have a lever that allows any old idiot to divert the whole group of us to Westport on a whim.
They have a point.
robinson
Posts: 19407
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:01 am
Title: Je suis devenu Français
Location: USA

Re: Trolley problem

Post by robinson »

I was thinking about this the other day

If you throw the switch, but then throw it again while the trolly is only half through the switch

You can derail the trolley
robinson
Posts: 19407
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:01 am
Title: Je suis devenu Français
Location: USA

Re: Trolley problem

Post by robinson »

The front truck is going one way and the back truck is on the other line

Problem solved
robinson
Posts: 19407
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:01 am
Title: Je suis devenu Français
Location: USA

Re: Trolley problem

Post by robinson »

Unless of course it kills everybody on the trolley
Pyrrho
Posts: 33083
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:17 am
Title: Man in Black
Location: Division 6

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Pyrrho »

ceptimus
Posts: 1464
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: Trolley problem

Post by ceptimus »

In southern parts of the UK, where electric trains are powered via an electrified third rail, it wouldn't matter much because all those tied to the tracks would already be electrocuted to death, and possibly beginning to smoulder, before the trolley even gets to them.
Hotarubi
Posts: 5332
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:12 am
Title: Enchantress
Location: This septic Isle.

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Hotarubi »

ceptimus wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 10:41 pm In southern parts of the UK, where electric trains are powered via an electrified third rail, it wouldn't matter much because all those tied to the tracks would already be electrocuted to death, and possibly beginning to smoulder, before the trolley even gets to them.
Alternatively, on overhead power systems, all the people need to do is buy a ticket for a fucking Virgin train to buy themselves an inordinate amount of time in which to get rescued.
Doctor X
Posts: 77685
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Doctor X »

So what you are saying is this can only happen in a Fascist regime because . . .

. . .

. . .

. . . the trains run on time?

– J.D.
Ben Trovado
Posts: 1912
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:08 pm
Title: Ex Avenger

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Ben Trovado »

Underappreciated Italian admiration.
Doctor X
Posts: 77685
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Doctor X »



– J.D.
robinson
Posts: 19407
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:01 am
Title: Je suis devenu Français
Location: USA

Re: Trolley problem

Post by robinson »

robinson wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:48 am The front truck is going one way and the back truck is on the other line

Problem solved
The real problem, as is often the case, is not the one in the question.

In this case the real question, is who tied people to the fucking tracks?

But they don’t want you asking that question, because it gets to the real problem.
Pyrrho
Posts: 33083
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:17 am
Title: Man in Black
Location: Division 6

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Pyrrho »

So has anyone offered a solution of throwing one's self onto the tracks in front of the trolley in order to save the lives of six people?
Hotarubi
Posts: 5332
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:12 am
Title: Enchantress
Location: This septic Isle.

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Hotarubi »

Pyrrho wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:54 am So has anyone offered a solution of throwing one's self onto the tracks in front of the trolley in order to save the lives of six people?
If that was the case and a human's mass would act as a brake, only the first person in the larger group would die before their meat, bones and entrails would chug up the wheels. So you're still left with the same problem.

One person dies in any scenario. Congrats, you've decided it is you.

Dipshit.
Doctor X
Posts: 77685
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Doctor X »

But not me, then.

Right! Capital plan!

– J.D.
Ben Trovado
Posts: 1912
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:08 pm
Title: Ex Avenger

Re: Trolley problem

Post by Ben Trovado »

Let's think outside the box.

What we obviously need are MORE TROLLEYS.