Dear SC,

This is our lounge area. Feel free to come in and get acquainted!
Cool Hand
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Post by Cool Hand »

CC wrote:Don't say a damned word to her about it, and keep your stare away from the fun place. Anything you tell her might be misconstrued and she might make trouble for you. Do I sound paranoid? Perhaps, but I prefer to think of it as erring on the side of caution. Just stick to business and mundane shit like "nice weather" and "did you see that episode on TV?".

I've seen a guy get reprimanded for merely paying a compliment to a young hottie in the workplace, something like "nice dress, it makes you look slimmer". The girl complained to a higher-up that she was being harassed.
The guy got in shit. Even though the comment was meant as an innocent compliment (as he claimed), it was perceived by the hottie as a come-on. The boss took her version over his. Perhaps not that he did believe her, but he didn't want that sort of thing going any further than his office. The guy got reprimanded and moved to another department.
Personally, I suspect if the guy was a twenty-something stud, that would have never happened. He was a bit older, in his late 30's.
This. I concur with CC 100% on this.

There is nothing for you to gain and everything for you to lose by mentioning this to her or anyone else.

At the workplace, women are not women. They are colleagues. Period. Get that through your head and keep it there. Do not let your guard down in this regard, no matter how cool a female colleague seems. Ever. That means no risque jokes or e-mails, no lurid tales, no smart comments, no compliments or comments about appearance, nothing but pure business. Sorry, but them's the rules if you want to ensure you stay out of trouble.

CH
gnome
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Post by gnome »

LizardPeople wrote:Dear SC,

It's annual review time at work again. I sure miss the good old days when my review was written by people who liked me. Now I have to write it myself. Should I out myself as the lazy incompetent fool I actually am, or should I present myself as the hard-working whizkid I have tricked everyone else into believing I am? Please weigh the possibility of future wage increases against the foul, dark stains that shall surely appear upon my soul.

Thanks in advance.
Dear Thanks in Advance,

The soul is a construct of the human imagination. Don't worry about your review, they will cancel merit raises due to "the economy".
Bruce
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Post by Bruce »

Cool Hand wrote:
CC wrote:Don't say a damned word to her about it, and keep your stare away from the fun place. Anything you tell her might be misconstrued and she might make trouble for you. Do I sound paranoid? Perhaps, but I prefer to think of it as erring on the side of caution. Just stick to business and mundane shit like "nice weather" and "did you see that episode on TV?".

I've seen a guy get reprimanded for merely paying a compliment to a young hottie in the workplace, something like "nice dress, it makes you look slimmer". The girl complained to a higher-up that she was being harassed.
The guy got in shit. Even though the comment was meant as an innocent compliment (as he claimed), it was perceived by the hottie as a come-on. The boss took her version over his. Perhaps not that he did believe her, but he didn't want that sort of thing going any further than his office. The guy got reprimanded and moved to another department.
Personally, I suspect if the guy was a twenty-something stud, that would have never happened. He was a bit older, in his late 30's.
This. I concur with CC 100% on this.

There is nothing for you to gain and everything for you to lose by mentioning this to her or anyone else.

At the workplace, women are not women. They are colleagues. Period. Get that through your head and keep it there. Do not let your guard down in this regard, no matter how cool a female colleague seems. Ever. That means no risque jokes or e-mails, no lurid tales, no smart comments, no compliments or comments about appearance, nothing but pure business. Sorry, but them's the rules if you want to ensure you stay out of trouble.

CH
Well, duh!

That's why all my lurid affairs are in my head.

And in text on SC. :D
Pyrrho
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Post by Pyrrho »

robinson wrote:Bruce, maybe you aren't used to the fashions of the day?
http://jeanshook.com/wp-content/uploads ... 5keira.jpg

And the new rule, if you shave it, you can show right up to it.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/86/23371 ... e98d_m.jpg

I mean, unless you seeing clam, what's the big deal?
http://www.myddnetwork.com/clothing-sho ... y-type.jpg

You might want to check with the other male co-workers, see if it isn't just you
http://www.truejeans.com/img/Image/img641.jpg
Charley's 'ad 'em.
Mulebear
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Post by Mulebear »

Bruce, some girls have this thing about trying to "turn" gay guys.

Fag.



Seriously though... Say nothing to her, but HR needs to know about it and you need them to document the issue and give you a copy. It may be innocent, but...

Don't fool yourself. The tattoo showing is inappropriate. Let HR handle it. I've worked HR before and had to deal with this subject several times. Nipping it in the bud now might be a bit embarrassing for her, but in the long run it could become a nightmare for her and others.
Mulebear
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Post by Mulebear »

Bearguin wrote:[It's Thanksgiving in Canada this weekend (Monday). As usual, my wife and I go to my parents place. Mom cooks the normal, dull turkey.

What can I do (besides simple asking to which she has already said No!) to get her to cook a Bacon Turducken this year?
Don't go to your Mom's place. Go to Waffle House and tell your Mom that you would rather eat at Waffle House for you Thanksgiving meal than continue to eat her dull turkey. But... If she would make a Bacon Turducken, you would happily reconsider eating at her place next year.

Or...

Tell her that the doctors told you that you are going to die in less than a week. Then explain to her how you really wanted to have a Bacon Turducken before you die. If you don't die next week, then you get to say, "See Ma. Science doesn't know everything."
Bruce
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Post by Bruce »

Mulebear wrote: Let HR handle it.
Sounds lovely on paper, but in reality, our company's HR department is one person, and she's, well...... :twisted: and :woowoo: and :Devious3: and :Mockering: and :Wedgie: and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it, so :nope .

I can either look at
http://www.myddnetwork.com/clothing-sho ... y-type.jpg

or deal with

:flamingevil:

in HR.

I think the choice is clear.
Grammatron
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Post by Grammatron »

The choice is very clear. Make a written complaint to the HR and retain a copy. What HR does or doesn't do is their future lawsuit problem.
Mulebear
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Post by Mulebear »

Grammatron wrote:The choice is very clear. Make a written complaint to the HR and retain a copy. What HR does or doesn't do is their future lawsuit problem.
Yes, but get a signature from HR on your copy.
sparks
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Post by sparks »

Bruce: Life is short. Hit it. Hit the Jeebus out of it. Now. :lol:
Anaxagoras
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Re: Dear SC,

Post by Anaxagoras »

Bruce wrote:Dear SC,

I have an attractive young co-worker who is in her early 20's. She has a tatoo printed in a region well below the belly button, far below what my generation would consider 'decent'. The reason why I know this is because she has a nervous habit. Whenever she becomes stressed, she nervously pushes the front of her pants down and rubs her tatoo, exposing supple young flesh and naughty curves. I'm pretty sure she does this unintentionally.

Today, she was buying her first house. She was so nervous that she pushed the front of her pants down far enough that I could see the entire tatoo. I had to lock my eyes onto hers as she explained her nervousness about buying her first house. It took all my will not to look down, or rather straight ahead, as her exposed flesh was two feet in front of me because I was sitting down and she was standing.

What should I do, SC? I feel like I should talk to her about her subconscious nervous habit, but I'm afraid, SC.

I'm afraid she'll stop doing it.

Dear god, she keeps herself well trimmed. :shock:

Help!

30-Something-Perv
Compliment her on her tatoo and see how she reacts. :twisted:
hammegk
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Post by hammegk »

Bruce wrote:
This would be her usual pants level.
As you later mention, it's obvious you don't have a functioning HR dept. Talk about inappropriate workplace wear.

As others have said, document your concerns to HR anyway; you'll have to judge your situation if a cc: to her boss (or The Boss) is also a good idea.
Anaxagoras
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Post by Anaxagoras »

Man, there sure are a lot of wet blankets here.
Anaxagoras
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Post by Anaxagoras »

scarlet_35 wrote:I don't really agree with telling HR though, that'll just stir up shit as well, I'd just pretend you never noticed it.
I totally agree. To cover your own ass you drop a dime on someone? If it's a problem, you tell the person directly first instead of going behind their back. Only if that doesn't work so you consider more drastic measures. If it's not a problem, they you either ignore it or pay her a compliment (:twisted:) and see how she reacts.
robinson
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Post by robinson »

Fuck all that. Just tell her about this topic.
Anaxagoras
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Post by Anaxagoras »

Double post
Last edited by Anaxagoras on Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bruce
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Post by Bruce »

scarlet_35 wrote: I don't really agree with telling HR though, that'll just stir up shit as well, I'd just pretend you never noticed it Plus how is her doing that any different than women wearing tops where their cleavage is showing?
You bring up and interesting point.

She has very nice boobs, and so do several women that I work with, but I've never seen them wear shirts that reveal cleavage. In fact, I can't remember a time when I've seen a woman wear a shirt that reveals cleavage at work.

I has sad. :cry:
Mulebear
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Post by Mulebear »

Anaxagoras wrote:
scarlet_35 wrote:I don't really agree with telling HR though, that'll just stir up shit as well, I'd just pretend you never noticed it.
I totally agree. To cover your own ass you drop a dime on someone? If it's a problem, you tell the person directly first instead of going behind their back. Only if that doesn't work so you consider more drastic measures. If it's not a problem, they you either ignore it or pay her a compliment (:twisted:) and see how she reacts.
Wrong. Worst thing you can do.

It's nice to be friends with the people you work with, but the reality is that you are there to work. You really don't know as much as you think you do about the people you work with. Going to her first could backfire on you. Unfortunately, I've seen it happen many times.

HR should handle this in a professional way. They should be discreet and discuss the situation with her revealing nothing about who complained. HR should have a "no retaliation" policy so that even if she should figure out who complained, she would not be able to cause that person any problems without further discipline.

She might be embarrassed by the situation, but she'll eventually get over it and get back to being an employee. Of course, if she was doing it on purpose, she may harbor resentments, but then her days working there will be numbered. She'll either quit or be released.

If you do nothing, and later on this situation causes problems for someone else, you could be implicated in the issue and your actions could be considered duplicitous.

If HR does nothing, and you experience any problems due to the issue, you will then have a case for a lawsuit. Make sure you have everything in writing including signatures of those you reported the problem to.
Nyarlathotep
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Post by Nyarlathotep »

I say go to HR if it really bothers you. If not shut up and (discretely) enjoy the show.
Badger
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Post by Badger »

Ignore it. Ignore boobs. Ignore eyes, and hair. Ignore other "hot women" at work. Ignore the smelly guy, and the guy with a bad complexion. Ignore the annoying voices, and the poor dressers.

They're all co-workers. Nothing more, and nothing less.

(Normally, I'd agree with the others here about going to HR but you indicated she's a hag-beast who would not be any help)

Your ass is in your own hands on this one. Let the cold chill of imagining getting a pink slip and having to go home with no job, to your wife and kids guide your eyes, thoughts, and actions.

I've seen guys get fired for stupid shit before. It sends chills down my spine.
robinson
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Post by robinson »

I say snap some pic and post them. She is probably a freak man. Ask her if she has any piercings.
sparks
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Post by sparks »

Do not let the little head do the thinking in this situation.
asthmatic camel
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Post by asthmatic camel »

Bruce, keep a can of Lysol on your desk and rapidly switch your gaze bwtween that and the offending minge, all the while talking high-falutin' chemistry stuff and occasionally affecting a twitch in your right eyebrow.
Bruce
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Post by Bruce »

asthmatic camel wrote:Bruce, keep a can of Lysol on your desk and rapidly switch your gaze bwtween that and the offending minge, all the while talking high-falutin' chemistry stuff and occasionally affecting a twitch in your right eyebrow.
You know me too well. :twisted:
Beleth
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Post by Beleth »

Mulebear wrote:HR should handle this in a professional way. They should be discreet and discuss the situation with her revealing nothing about who complained. HR should have a "no retaliation" policy so that even if she should figure out who complained, she would not be able to cause that person any problems without further discipline.

She might be embarrassed by the situation, but she'll eventually get over it and get back to being an employee. Of course, if she was doing it on purpose, she may harbor resentments, but then her days working there will be numbered. She'll either quit or be released.

If you do nothing, and later on this situation causes problems for someone else, you could be implicated in the issue and your actions could be considered duplicitous.

If HR does nothing, and you experience any problems due to the issue, you will then have a case for a lawsuit. Make sure you have everything in writing including signatures of those you reported the problem to.
THIS, with one caveat: if you really don't trust your HR person to be professional about this, then seek face-to-face legal advice first.

I had to call CPS on a neighbor once, and they didn't keep my wife's or my son's name out of the conversation with the folks they needed to talk to, and I've regretted it ever since.
Bruce
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Post by Bruce »

Beleth wrote: THIS, with one caveat: if you really don't trust your HR person to be professional about this, then seek face-to-face legal advice first.
Holy shit, people!

Legal advice? Really?

http://www.myddnetwork.com/clothing-sho ... y-type.jpg

I'm not feeling threatened by exposed belly.

I'm feeling a tingling sensation in my naughty region, but that doesn't make me want to call a lawyer. What's the lawyer going to do? Send her a Cease and Desist letter addressing her belly flashing? Make her sign a waiver?

Plus, this girl is not a hussy. She's very intelligent and totally cool. In fact, of all my coworkers, she's the least back-stabbing and vindictive. I'm not going to talk to my evil HR person about her, and I'm not going to call a lawyer and let him poison me with paranoia, and then bill me for it. Sheesh.

Besides, the weather's getting colder and she's been wearing sweaters. The tattoo has gone into hibernation for the winter.

We'll see if anything has changed come Groundhog day. :wink:
Mulebear
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Post by Mulebear »

Bruce wrote:I'm not feeling threatened by exposed belly.

[snip]

Plus, this girl is not a hussy. She's very intelligent and totally cool. In fact, of all my coworkers, she's the least back-stabbing and vindictive. I'm not going to talk to my evil HR person about her, and I'm not going to call a lawyer and let him poison me with paranoia, and then bill me for it. Sheesh.
Understood, but let's say that someone else sees the young lady doing the Tattoo display while she is talking to you and that person becomes offended. That person might go to HR and claim both of you are behaving inappropriately. If another coworker (backstabbing and vindictive) has it out for you, they could use it to get you in trouble.

In a work environment their are more people involved than you and this young lady.
hammegk
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Post by hammegk »

Mulebear wrote:
Bruce wrote:I'm not feeling threatened by exposed belly.

[snip]

Plus, this girl is not a hussy. She's very intelligent and totally cool. In fact, of all my coworkers, she's the least back-stabbing and vindictive. I'm not going to talk to my evil HR person about her, and I'm not going to call a lawyer and let him poison me with paranoia, and then bill me for it. Sheesh.
Understood, but let's say that someone else sees the young lady doing the Tattoo display while she is talking to you and that person becomes offended. That person might go to HR and claim both of you are behaving inappropriately. If another coworker (backstabbing and vindictive) has it out for you, they could use it to get you in trouble.

In a work environment their are more people involved than you and this young lady.
Or as Bruce says ... DAMMIT!
Cool Hand
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Post by Cool Hand »

Bruce wrote: Plus, this girl is not a hussy. She's very intelligent and totally cool. In fact, of all my coworkers, she's the least back-stabbing and vindictive.
Bruce, Bruce, have you learned nothing in your 30+ years of dealing with women?

There is no such thing as a totally cool chick when it comes to flirting and sexual advances and rejection. No such thing. Chicks, even the coolest of the coolest, get all fucking weird and rejecty and creeped out by any overt actual response, no matter what it is, from a guy to their flirting, if indeed that's what it is, when they do not want a relationship with you. Here's a big fucking clue.

No matter how much you think you can read signals from a woman, you ARE WRONG. Women are evil creatures who send out all kinds of mixed signals, and just when you are absolutely convinced this totally hot chick who is totally cool, and smart too, is into you, and you respond with a witty comment and/or come on, BLAM! Both barrels of being totally creeped out and indignant and Oh MY GOD, how could you think I would ever in a million years want to be with you come blasting right in your...naughty regions and your face.

NO ONE understands how to read women's signals. NO ONE. Men who get lucky all the time with tons of women are getting rejected 95% of the time. They are playing a numbers game. They hit on 10,000 women in a month and get lucky with 500. Those are Wilt Chamberlain numbers, man, but Wilt's getting rejected 9,500 times a month. Also, if those were women working for the Lakers or the NBA back then, then Wilt was facing sexual harassment suits and charges every minute of every day. OK, that's if sexual harassment as a civil cause of action was recognized widely back then, and it was not. Also, Wilt had NBA groupies, as do 99% of NBA stars.

OK, so the hypothetical totally fails in your case, but quit kidding yourself that this chick totally wants you, or that even if she did for some reason, that you could get away with it. You do not respond to her itches or her alleged coolness at all, except it might be polite to say "Excuse me," if you need to walk near her without bumping into her.

CH

P.S. Do you know why women send mixed signals? It's for a variety of reasons, but maybe the most common one is that every woman, even if she's been #1 on FHM's and Maxim's Hottest Women of the Year for 10 years in a row, is insecure about her looks and thus her sexual attractiveness. Every woman. This means from time to time most women want to be reassured that they still got it, that they are sexually attractive to other men, not just their hubbies or whatnot. Therefore, they dress or act provocatively just to see if men around them respond. This does not mean they want those men to slobber on them or try to rip off their panties at Bergdorf's. It means nothing more than they want to get a response from other men, then kick them in the face when the common, ordinary, not in a million years men are dumb enough to think the women might mean something by it.

Don't be one of those men, Bruce.
CC
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Post by CC »

Women usually control when sex can happen.
With that kind of control comes power on a sexual level. Even the insecure ones can realise this. Some exert that type of power to try and control men, even if it's to get a reaction from flirting. The fact that the guy will respond to the flirter as she expects simply demonstrates to her the power she can wield.
Some will use sex/sexual innuendo, on even a small level, to assert some of that power and control over men to make them their dancing bears. Even if it's for a few minutes of sexually charged chit chat (this type of woman usually holds a dim view of men in general). Some will flirt/tease and use this power as a means to soothe their insecurity about themselves (flirting for compliments). Some will use it to genuinely attract a guy. Some will use it to try and acquire something from the guy on a more material level: promotion, discount on something they want to buy, fix her car, etc.
Last edited by CC on Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
asthmatic camel
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Post by asthmatic camel »

Cool Hand, if we had a language award here, I'd nominate your last post.

:)
Mentat
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Post by Mentat »

Bruce, from my pitifully little knowledge of these things, I'd advise to go with sticking to caution. I don't know if that means going to HR or whatnot, but don't put yourself into something that you could really regret in the future. IMO, I'd keep my distance, respectfully.

Cool Hand and Mulebear put it better than I could have said.
gnome
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Post by gnome »

Maybe Bruce can correct, but I don't pick up from his words that he's planning something dumb. It just sounds like he plans to stay quiet and enjoy the view from time to time.

As some has noted, even this approach has its risks, but not the kind that makes me want to say OMGWTF you fool!
Bruce
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Post by Bruce »

gnome wrote:Maybe Bruce can correct, but I don't pick up from his words that he's planning something dumb. It just sounds like he plans to stay quiet and enjoy the view from time to time.
Correct.

This is my 3rd job. If any of the stuff I described had happened in my first job or second job, I would consider all the legal advice, but in my current environment, I think I could potentially cause more damage by talking to HR or a lawyer than keeping quiet and doing nothing.

Still, I appreciate all the advice and opinions. Thanks. :)
Beleth
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Post by Beleth »

Bruce wrote:
Beleth wrote: THIS, with one caveat: if you really don't trust your HR person to be professional about this, then seek face-to-face legal advice first.
Holy shit, people!

Legal advice? Really?
:lol:

You have systematically eliminated every other lesser option put to you so far!
What's the lawyer going to do? Send her a Cease and Desist letter addressing her belly flashing? Make her sign a waiver?
Um... no, he will give you advice. You know how you ended your OP with "Help!"? That is what he will do. He will help.

Or, you know, you can do nothing, or you can do one of the other choices given to you that you don't like, or you can come up with an option on your own. Your choice. But it's jerkish to ask for advice and then reply to advice given in good faith with "Holy shit! Really?"
Beleth
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Post by Beleth »

Bruce wrote:Still, I appreciate all the advice and opinions. Thanks. :)
Oh... okay then. You're welcome. :)
Bruce
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Post by Bruce »

Cool Hand wrote: Bruce, Bruce, have you learned nothing in your 30+ years of dealing with women?
Yes.

How do you think I ended up getting nabbed by Mrs. Bruce?

This is me from age 18 to 22, considering the idea of asking a woman out:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/creepy.png

And Facebook didn't even exist back then. :(
Bruce
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Post by Bruce »

Beleth wrote:But it's jerkish to ask for advice and then reply to advice given in good faith with "Holy shit! Really?"
I like reading this and imagining your avatar saying it. :D

All in good humor, dear Beleth. No offense intended. :wink:
Cool Hand
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Post by Cool Hand »

Bruce wrote:
gnome wrote:Maybe Bruce can correct, but I don't pick up from his words that he's planning something dumb. It just sounds like he plans to stay quiet and enjoy the view from time to time.
Correct.

This is my 3rd job. If any of the stuff I described had happened in my first job or second job, I would consider all the legal advice, but in my current environment, I think I could potentially cause more damage by talking to HR or a lawyer than keeping quiet and doing nothing.

Still, I appreciate all the advice and opinions. Thanks. :)
Hey, that was my legal advice. I told you in the third or fourth post from the top of this page not to mention any of this to anyone, including her.

I'll quote myself to beat the dead horse further:

Cool Hand wrote on this very page:
There is nothing for you to gain and everything for you to lose by mentioning this to her or anyone else.
(emphasis added)

CH
Mulebear
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Post by Mulebear »

Bruce wrote:This is me from age 18 to 22, considering the idea of asking a woman out:

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h95/m ... /bruce.jpg

And Facebook didn't even exist back then. :(
Fixed.